After a lifetime on stage, musician Shirley Manson reflects on the extraordinary ways she sees the world today.
After a lifetime on stage, musician Shirley Manson reflects on the extraordinary ways she sees the world today.
Shirley Manson:
I just for one, have always loved sadness. I love sad movies. I love sad books. I love sad stories. They make me feel like I’m connected to reality instead of fantasy.
Speaker 2:
This is design matters with Debbie Millman from designobserver.com. For 14 years now, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they’re thinking about and working on. On this podcast Debbie talks with singer/songwriter Shirley Manson, about the value of speaking up.
Shirley Manson:
I am so a believer in speaking to destroy shame. Shame is something that festers inside us through our silence.
Speaker 2:
Here’s Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
I’d like to thank two of the patrons that helped make Design Matters possible. Is your team designing an app from scratch, rethinking the look and feel of your brand, maybe taking on something massive like transforming your brand’s entire customer journey? Well don’t do it the old way, passing numberless one off comps through endless emails. Instead, do it all in one place. Do it in Adobe XD. Now for free with the new starter plan. Adobe XD combines the ability to both design, prototype, and share in a single solution. Its combination of creativity and productivity lets your teams eliminate bottlenecks and simplify workflows. It can now create an interactive prototype and then share it with teammates and reviewers in a single place. It keeps up with today’s creative demands by letting your team work when and where they want across Windows, iOS, the web, and more.
Debbie Millman:
Adobe XD has helped big brands changed the way they create and review prototypes at a large scale, so don’t do it the old way. Use Adobe XD, the design platform for the future. Available today for free. For more information, visit xd.adobe.com today.
Debbie Millman:
Wix.com puts the creative power of building dynamic websites back into the hands of designers. As anyone who has spent time in a wiziwig platform knows, what you see isn’t necessarily always what you get. On the flip side for some, it’s far too easy to get lost in code and lose the forest for the trees. Wix.com allows you to find your own personal sweet spot and take control of your site where their drag and drop editor, hundreds of advanced design features such as retina ready image galleries, custom font sets, HD video, and parallax scrolling effects. And even serverless hassle-free coding for robust websites. with wix.com you have total control of your web design like never before. So join Wix’s brilliant community of designers, artists, and creatives at large around the world for free. And ask yourself what will you create today?
Debbie Millman:
Shirley Manson is a rock and roll legend. She is the lead singer of the multi-platinum multi award winning band Garbage. She’s also an actress, and starred on the hit television show Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. She has also been described as being dark and emotional, and she’s okay with that. The singer from Edinburgh wants her listeners to feel sadness, loneliness, disappointment, and frustration. All of the emotions that are part of life. On a recent trip to Mexico, I got a chance to sit down with Shirley Manson while she was on tour in Puebla to talk about her career, her music, and the long road that brought her to where she is today.
Shirley Manson:
Are we in business?
Debbie Millman:
We are.
Shirley Manson:
Excellent.
Debbie Millman:
Shirley I understand that not only were you a Brownie scout growing up. I also read that you’ve been known to recite your Brownie scout creed on occasion and was wondering if there was any chance that I could get you to do that today.
Shirley Manson:
I promise that I’ll do my best to do my duty to God to serve the Queen and help other people, and to keep the brownie guide law.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Shirley Manson:
And for those who are just listening and not watching, I did have my little finger salute-
Debbie Millman:
Yes, you did.
Shirley Manson:
My two finger salute.
Debbie Millman:
Do you know that I still have my Brownie pins?
Shirley Manson:
Oh see, I’m jealous. I wish I kept mine.
Debbie Millman:
I still have them. And every now and then I’ll take them out of this little box that I have of [inaudible 00:04:45] over my childhood. And I look at them and remember, and astounded that so much time has gone by and that was so important to my life at the time.
Shirley Manson:
How beautiful, yeah. I love that.
Debbie Millman:
So I know that your mom [Muriel 00:04:58] was conceived on the highlands by a Butler and the governess, and she was an orphan until she was adopted at five years old. As a result, you’ve said that she always felt inferior and tried hard to be a part of things, and to make everyone feel good. You’ve said that in many ways, you grew up doing the same. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about why.
Shirley Manson:
Well, I didn’t grow up doing the same funny enough. My mom certainly fostered a very loving home, and she was obsessed with the concept of family. So family was something that was really important to her. And she absolutely supplicated herself for the family unit. And as I was growing up, I think I was quite intimidated by that. I think that’s one of the reasons I never had children, because I was frightened, I think by how serious she took her role as a matriarch.
Shirley Manson:
But once my mom died, I really suddenly realized that the brightest light in my life had gone out. And one of the things that really struck me the day of her funeral was a friend of hers had come up to me and said, “Every time I met your mom, it didn’t matter what was going on in my life. I would always leave her company feeling better than I had before I bumped into her.” I remember thinking, wow that energy, my Mom’s light and energy is gone, and I’m a dark horse. I’ve spent my whole life dark, and I’ve always treasured the dark, and always been a bit scared of light in a funny way. And in some ways I still am. And yet the day my mom died, I really decided that I was going to try and bring light into my relationships and into the world. And so after 45 years of being a bit of like I said a dark horse, I’ve turned my attitude around a little.
Debbie Millman:
I read that after she passed, that you were determined to become the architect of your own life. Wondering how that realization came to be.
Shirley Manson:
Well, two things really. My mom always used to say, “You need to engineer your own happiness, you need to engineer your own life. Nobody’s going to do it for you.” And I never really fully understood that again until she died because she had been my Joan of Arc really. And she fixed every problem I to usually, particularly emotionally. My mum could fix anything that I was feeling. And when she left this earth, I realized, “Okay, I think I know what she was talking about now.” And I started to really focus on the idea of making myself feel good in my life on a daily basis because I suddenly was aware that my time was running out and I didn’t want to spend it sitting on the coach feeling miserable and sorry for myself.
Debbie Millman:
Your dad was a research scientist at Edinburgh University in the department that eventually famously cloned Dolly the sheep. So were you aware of all of that happening at the time?
Shirley Manson:
I was vaguely aware. The funny thing is when we were growing up, my dad did specialize in genetics. In particularly, animal genetics. Me and my sisters just thought this was the most boring subject of all time. And it wasn’t again, until we were older, when we suddenly realized he was at the forefront of some of the most important subject matter in medicine and science in the future. So on so forth, so I’m very proud of father actually. But growing up he would conduct strange experiments in our gardens shed with eggs and markets and God knows what I mean. My dad is a real eccentric, and has been a hugely inspiring figure in my life and remains. He’s such an adventure and he’s so curious.
Debbie Millman:
I guess you get a lot from him in terms of your own alchemy, and working to make things different.
Shirley Manson:
I don’t have nearly as much get up and goes my father, but he’s a very religious man, very devote. And yet he’s a scientist. So I was brought up with this duality in my thinking, which I’m very grateful for. I don’t see that they have to be exclusive necessarily because my father always seemed to make this duality make complete sense to me.
Debbie Millman:
Well, I was doing my research and I saw that he was a Sunday school teacher as well-
Shirley Manson:
My Sunday school teacher, which was even worse.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, I didn’t even know. So you had to be in the class while he was teaching.
Shirley Manson:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
No, but you were also bullied as a child. Was he witnessing any of that? You were bullied because you were a redhead?
Shirley Manson:
Yeah, I mean that’s a common part of growing up or certainly back then, and I grew up in the seventies basically in Scotland. And being a redhead, you’re part of two percent of the population. You’re just a natural target. And so yeah I got bullied and people made fun of me, but it wasn’t until I got into high school, secondary school where I had a proper seriously physically imposing bully. She really did scare the bejesus out of me. But yeah, my parents knew about it because I told them about it, but their philosophy was you just have to deal with us. You need to figure out a way of dealing with it. I was furious at them, but I’m very grateful ultimately because in my life I am no longer even capable of being bullied as it turns out. Because I just learned how to deal with it.
Shirley Manson:
But every child has their own story. You think that you’re solely the one who is the target of people’s wrath. But I think people liked to bully other people. I think we’re seeing that in the [crosstalk 00:10:28] currently. So that’s just part and parcel of growing up, I think.
Debbie Millman:
Well despite your bullying, you said that your childhood was pretty normal. You studied violin and clarinet, you played in the school orchestra. You also sang with the choir. Then when you were a senior in high school, you began smoking and drinking, sniffing glue, shoplifting-
Shirley Manson:
You make me sound like such a charming character.
Debbie Millman:
[inaudible 00:10:51] fascinating. But on one occasion, you even broke into the Edinburgh Zoo. And what happened to cause that transition? Was it because of this overt bully?
Shirley Manson:
No, I don’t think was really. I certainly got very angry by being bullied and not having anyone run to my defense, that much I do know. But I was also a red head and we are highly strong as a breed, and there’s a lot of reasons for that. It’s been proven scientifically that we have a different gene and that causes us to experience pain differently, expedience heat differently and cold differently. There’s a whole list of isms that come along with being a red head, but I think it was hormonal and I also think it was a sensitivity that the rest of my family didn’t enjoy. And I choose these words very carefully because when I was growing up, I was told I was too sensitive, I was hypersensitive. I was just being sensitive, and I began to think of sensitivity as something bad. And of course now that I’m older and I realize it’s a great gift to be sensitive and to have empathy and understand what it’s like for another person.
Shirley Manson:
But back then, I didn’t understand this and I felt like I had this perception of the world that nobody else in my family enjoyed, and agreed upon and invested in. So I was always the odd one out in my family, I was very emotional. They weren’t. I would like to speak about things and examined things. They didn’t. And so there you have it. So I was furious because I wasn’t really being heard. I wasn’t really being seen. And so I think I made a determination, you will hear me and you will see me. And I was a middle child and I didn’t feel I got much of anything. I always got hand me downs, all my clothes were hand me downs from my sister and the little one got a lot of privileges because she was a baby and she was really cute, and I hated cute. I still kind of loath cute, cute doesn’t work for me. So I think that built this character who just determined to like I said, be seen and heard.
Debbie Millman:
At that time of your life you wanted to become an actress, and you tried to get into the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama, but were rejected.
Shirley Manson:
The pain still hurts.
Debbie Millman:
Oh my God. How is that possible, Shirley? How were you rejected? Can you imagine what they think now?
Shirley Manson:
I’m sure they’re relieved. I’m sure they’re relived they rejected me. But was a great sadness for me because that is what I wanted to do. And my two best friends at the time both got accepted to RADA in London. I was the loser in my mind inverted commas. And I had to change my whole concept of what my future might hold.
Debbie Millman:
What were you imagining you were going to do at that point?
Shirley Manson:
Well, I have no idea actually. I did spiral into a lot of panic, that much I do know. But it was around this same time that I was approached to join a band, so the problem got solved for me without me actually having to actively lift a finger, which disappoints me somewhat. But I got very fortunate.
Debbie Millman:
Well your first job was doing volunteer work in a local hospital’s cafeteria. You then went on to become a breakfast waitress at a local hotel. Then you went on to spend five years as a shop assistant at Miss Selfridge’s department store, so I wouldn’t say that it was just like boom, boom, you got another opportunity you’re rockstar. No. And I actually read that you started working in the cosmetics department at Miss Selfridge’s, but were eventually moved to the stock rooms because of your attitude to the customers?
Shirley Manson:
I did have a very, very poor attitude towards the customers. I’m not particularly servile. Certainly back then I wasn’t. No, I understand the beauty in service, but then I didn’t. I was very unpleasant and aggressive. And yes, arrogant one would say.
Debbie Millman:
Well in the early eighties while working at Miss Selfridge’s, you Martin and John [inaudible 00:14:35], Fin Wilson, Derek Kelly, and Rhona [Scobey 00:14:36]. Did I pronounce that correctly-
Shirley Manson:
That is perfect.
Debbie Millman:
Oh good. Started the band Goodbye Mr Mackenzie and I believe that band’s name came from the 1931 novel after leaving Mr Mackenzie.
Shirley Manson:
By Jean Rhys.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. So talk about that-
Shirley Manson:
That [inaudible 00:14:51] with me sadly. It’s a lovely literature reference, but that actually was all down to Martin Metcalfe, the lead singer. The band was actually in place by the time Rhona and I, and Finn joined the band.
Debbie Millman:
And so how did they know that you were even interested in being in a band? You were asked to join the band. What made them think that you’d be a good member of the band?
Shirley Manson:
Well, Martin was the one who approached me and the reason he met me was because we were both in, I was in Edinburgh Youth Theater pursuing my dream of acting. And Martin was pooled in to help us with a fringe production. I can’t even remember which production it was, but it was to perform at the Fringe in Edinburgh at the big arts festival there. We were scanty on good singers. He came in to help us, and basically I think he fell in love with me and he wanted to keep me around I think. And he asked me to join his band as a keyboard player. I learned piano when I was young. So I was like, “Yeah, I’ll join your band.” For one of nothing better to do because that was the summer that I got rejected from the Royal Academy. So the rest is history.
Debbie Millman:
And when did they all realize that you had this killer voice?
Shirley Manson:
I don’t think anybody’s really ever discovered I have a killer voice, to be honest. I think they’ve realized I was a dedicated member to the group, which I certainly was. I was in that band for a decade. And I didn’t take a percentage of the profits or anything. I didn’t really make any money. I didn’t ask for any money. I’d get a PD everyday, a per day from Martin and Kelly who were the bosses in the band. I was just a good group player-
Debbie Millman:
Team player.
Shirley Manson:
Team player, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
The band signed with a major label and nearly made it to the big time, and you then formed another band named Angel Fish with some members of goodbye Mr Mackenzie. Afterward the label wanted you as a solo artist and you formed the band with some members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie. In 1994, MTV’s show 120 Minutes aired a video for the band song Suffocate Me. The edited exactly one time, but it was a video that would change your life. Did you even know that MTV was going to air that video?
Shirley Manson:
I can’t remember if we knew or not. I began to get little bit of buzz on the East Coast of America down to a female journalist, who I’m ashamed to say I’ve forgotten her name. But she had presented Angel Fish in the Rolling Stone magazine as one to watch. So we were starting to get a little bit of word of mouth, but I don’t think I knew that video was getting played and it came as a great shock when out of the blue, I got contacted by the manager of Garbage as it turns out. Garbage was already formed at this point.
Debbie Millman:
So Steve Marker, Duke Erikson, and Butch Vig, who had recently hit the big time for producing Nirvana’s Nevermind [inaudible 00:17:43]-
Shirley Manson:
Well Butch was the only one who produced Nevermind.
Debbie Millman:
Yes. But Steve was the one that was watching the episode and what happened next?
Shirley Manson:
Yes. Steve was watching it, which is funnily enough he’s still a night owl. And he was my fairy mother essentially. He was the one who took me to the other two because they were looking for a vocalist and said, “I found this girl last night on TV. She’s got a lovely voice and I think she’d be cool person to work with. Let’s track her down.” And so they sent their management to find me and literally within 24 hours, which is kind of a miracle, they did get hold of me and I got a phone call out the blue from my [inaudible 00:18:19] in Los Angeles Phil [Schuster 00:18:21] who said, “Hey, I’ve got something really strange to share with you. The producer, American producer of Nevermind buy Nirvana Butch Vig wants to discuss a meeting with you. Would you be up for that?” And I was like, “Oh my God. Yeah, of course.”
Debbie Millman:
The first audition didn’t go well, right?
Shirley Manson:
Well I first of all met them in London. The three of them in the Landmark Hotel in London. And we got along really, really well. But it was presented to me as a project. Garbage was a project in which they would work with a variety of different singers and would I be interested in singing a song with them? Well of course I said yes. And then we left that night and I went home to my friend’s flat in London. We stuck on the news, and of course it was the night that Kurt Cobain had committed suicide. I was a huge Nirvana fan anyway, but the fact that I just left Butch Vig’s side, it really struck me as a strange and weird and I felt this bizarre connection with Butch. And that has remained a strange sadness for all of us in Garbage that somehow we were birthed out of the death of a true great. But they then called me up when I was on tour in America and I went and auditioned with them and it was a fiasco of monumental proportions.
Debbie Millman:
How come?
Shirley Manson:
Well, they stuck me upstairs in their kitchen and then they ran a lead down to the base in Madison, Wisconsin in Steve’s house. They were in the man cave downstairs in the basement and they would shout up things like, “We’re just going to run a track. Just make up some words and some music. Just as you feel.” And I had never written a word of music in my life before. Sorry, a note of music and/or a word of music. So I was just stuck, a microphone much like this with a track playing in my ears, ice cold, full of panic. And I didn’t know what to do and I just mumbled into the microphone. Literally like a mad person.
Shirley Manson:
So it was a fiasco and they were downstairs going, “Whoa this isn’t going very well.” But then we hung out that night at a bar and we just really got along well. We still get along well 25 years later so you can imagine when you’re meeting the first time and you have a connection with someone. We just got on like a house on fire. So that was the reason they called me back and said, “We think you should try again, are you up for it?” And I was like, “Yeah, I’m totally up for it.” And by this point, I was a bit more prepared and I realized okay, it’s now or never. You jump in, and you make up some words, and you come up with a melody or you don’t. It’s your call. And of course I go in front of a microphone and I got the gig.
Debbie Millman:
When did you become a full fledged member, right then and there?
Shirley Manson:
No, not right then and there. But pretty soon we had finished the record, and my record company was headed by a very famous music manager called Gary Kurfirst, who’s mostly known for his work with Talking Heads and Blondie and the Ramones. He’s this phenomenal, brilliant character who loved me and was my biggest champion. And he said to me, “If you want to have a good career with garbage, if you’re serious, they’re going to have to commit to you. And they need to buy out your contract. I will sell your contract for $10,000,” which is a steal. Because he wanted me to do well. He knew this was a great opportunity. And the lawyers that looked after the band and the record label that they refused to spend the 10 grant, they were like, “No, we’re not going to buy her. We’re just going to play it by ear. We’ll see how this project goes.”
Shirley Manson:
Well very quickly the project started really rolling along and it was clearly at least of quality. So the band themselves eventually said, “We’re going to cut you in as a full member because otherwise why would you invest your time in this?” But they could have got me for 10 grand, but they didn’t. So it worked out great for me in the end.
Debbie Millman:
Now you’ve said this about being in the band. “I’ve always been the odd one out in garbage. I was never part of the gang, I’m much younger, and I had a different upbringing. They’d been friends for 20 years before he came along, so I always felt out of things. Even when we got to playing live, I felt like I was letting them down in some way. I wasn’t Bob, I wasn’t Whitney Houston. I just felt like at every turn I was failing.” You can’t possibly still feel this way.
Shirley Manson:
I don’t feel that way anymore, but I would be lying if I said that I hadn’t felt like that up until quite recently.
Debbie Millman:
Really Shirley? Why?
Shirley Manson:
Well, for a lot of different reasons. We could go into it, it’s just so dull. But I’ve had a hard time in my life feeling confident and believing in myself, and that has taken me up to the age of I’d say 50, before I finally started to really believe in my own worth. And I get the feeling you having just spent some time in your company, you feel the same way. It took a long time, like you said. For you it was 40 years. For me-
Debbie Millman:
Closer to 50.
Shirley Manson:
There you go, closer to 50. I probably don’t need to explain to you, but it took me a long time to fight off bizarre bodied feelings of worthlessness and I’m not going to bore your listeners with why.
Shirley Manson:
Suffice to say I have dug myself out of it, but it’s only very recently that I’ve started to see I do bring something of worth to my band. I’m bloody good at what I do. I have worked my ass off, and I deserve this as much as anybody does. But being in a band with a very well respected music producer in an industry that really values male talent and has struggled ever recognizing female talent compounded my feelings of worthlessness. And that is no fault of anybody’s but my own. I allowed it to affect me that way. And now that I’m older, I have figured my way through this nonsense. But it took me awhile.
Debbie Millman:
Is there any one thing you can point to that was the catalyst to that breaking through?
Shirley Manson:
I talk about my mother’s death a lot. My mother dying was definitely when, it was a slap in the face where I realized, “Alright, you need to be an adult. You can no longer be a baby girl. You can’t suck your thumb and sit in the corner. You’re going to have to stand up and muster through this.” That was one. Secondly, I went on hiatus with my band. I decided, well does this mean I do nothing or do I continue to forge a career? I decided I was going to forge a career because I thought I would die if I didn’t have music in my life. So I decided to extract myself from the group and I chose myself a new lawyer, and I made a phone call to someone involved in the Garbage camp. I won’t name his name because it’s best I think for his dignity that I don’t. But he told me, “You’re a fool getting your own separate lawyer. Who do you think you are?” says he. “You will be nothing without your band.”
Shirley Manson:
And in that moment, something ignited in my stomach. I can only put it that way. A fire ignited in my belly and I thought, “How dare you speak to me like this?” I was a 45 really accomplished career woman. I’d made not only myself, a life for myself, but I’ve made people millions of dollars. And I thought and I’m sitting on the phone listening to a man berate me because I’ve decided to find a lawyer to represent me and my interests alone. And that was the turning point for me.
Debbie Millman:
Perfect. Perfect. I came across an article where you spoke with a journalist about how you had adopted a rescue terrier saying, “I took her to behavioral training because you never know what you’re inheriting where a rescue dog.” And the first thing the trainer said was, “There is no such thing as an aggressive dog, only a scared dog.” I know that influenced how you thought about your own fears and I’m wondering if that was part of it as well.
Shirley Manson:
Yeah, I sound like cooky mad person, like a dog lady. But I am a dog lady, and there’s a reason for that. Because rescuing my dog did change my attitude to my own life and my own way through life. Because yeah, I have felt scared a lot of my life, and as a result of being very aggressive. I am definitely an aggressive woman without a doubt and I’m not gonna make any apologies for it. I’m grateful to be an aggressive woman. It’s served me very well. However, that episode that you refer to you about my dog really made me think because when the trainer said that about [Vila 00:26:56], my beautiful terrier, tears sprung to my eyes because I was like, “I’m the terrier here,” which I am. It’s why I’ve always loved terriers, and a bond was forged between me and my dog right there that has remained with me now for 13 years, and she has done nothing but teach me how to try and move through my day to day existence. And there’s been so many lessons this mute little creature. Well not so mute always, but communicated these really important life lessons to me.
Debbie Millman:
I don’t know if I would have able to experience true love if I hadn’t had my experience with my two dogs, who really taught me what it means to love, without even really needing to get anything tangible back other than the feelings that they gave me. It was one of the greatest gifts of my life. Transformative gifts of my life.
Shirley Manson:
I’m with you there. They are joyful around you. They show that they’re happy to see you. And a lot of the time I was like, “Wow, I don’t show people that I love necessarily how delighted I am to see them.” And that has informed my relationships, my human relationships. I think it’s okay that we don’t experience selfless love or a unconditional love. I don’t think there’s such a thing, quite frankly for me personally. But I do believe in joyful, loving, symbiosis.
Debbie Millman:
Your lyrics have been described as melancholic and dark. You talked before about being dark. But you’ve found that reductive and have stated, “People get uncomfortable when you tell the truth. I don’t. I’m happy to feel. I want to feel every single fucking thing. I want to feel the breeze, the punch, the disappointment. I want to feel love, lust, and everything in between. I want to feel it all. I’m a greedy motherfucker. If that makes me dark, so be it.”
Shirley Manson:
Amen to that sister.
Debbie Millman:
So I’m sharing this with some friends last night. I said, “This is Shirley. This is the woman I’m meeting tomorrow.” And my friend Zoe sent me this excerpt she’d come across from a letter Georgia O’Keeffe wrote to her friend Anita Pollitzer, and I thought you’d really enjoy it.
Debbie Millman:
“Your letters are certainly like drinks of fine cold spring water on a hot day. They have a spark of the kind of fire in them that makes life worthwhile, that nervous energy that makes people like you and I want to go after everything in the world, bump our heads on all the hard walls, and scratch our hands on all the briars. But it makes living great, doesn’t it? I’m glad people want everything in the world good and bad, bitter and sweet. I want it all to and a lot of too.”
Shirley Manson:
That’s given me the goosebumps. I love that. I love that quote.
Debbie Millman:
When did big fat emotions and being sensitive and wanting a lot become something that was considered negative or greedy? Why is that considered greedy? It seems like it’s table stakes for living.
Shirley Manson:
It is table stakes, but I think people shut themselves down to try and protect themselves because they get disappointed. It’s all about disappointment I think, and being afraid of feeling disappointed. We have also been taught by society that darkness is bad. White is good, black is bad, and darkness is scary. Brightness is where nothing bad ever happens. There’s all these weird, subliminal messaging that go on in our culture that I think teach us to be afraid. Afraid of feeling, afraid of experiencing sadness. We’re taught that there’s something wrong with us if we’re not feeling happy all the time.
Shirley Manson:
And so people are scared to be judged. So they try and pretend they’re happy all the time and put a smile on their face. Particularly for women culturally, we’re always taught smile. You need to smile. Smile more. Why don’t you smile? This bullshit that women are taught that-
Debbie Millman:
Somebody says that to me now, I just bite their heads off.
Shirley Manson:
But we’re taught to be pleasing, and pleasant company. Not challenging company, not aggressive in any way. So I think there’s a lot. I just for one have always loved sadness. I love sad movies, I love books, I love sad stories. They make me feel like I’m connected to reality instead of fantasy. Fantasy scares me. I feel like I want to be prepared for the inevitable things that happen. Death primarily is my biggest teacher.
Debbie Millman:
In what way?
Shirley Manson:
First of all, I’m aware that time is ticking. I don’t want to waste any time. So why do I feel it that way? Well, because I’m going to die. I don’t want to be unkind to people because well, they might die. It’s just really basic moronic thinking. I’m a moron. I think that’s maybe why I’ve survived so well. I have very strong survival instincts, and I always want to be aware of danger. So to be aware of danger, you have to know where the danger lies. To see danger, you need to be looking at all fronts. Behind you, below you, above you. And in all the different colors. That’s just what I believe in. To stay safe, you need to see it all. And why would you willfully cut a whole part of your experience just to pretend that things are okay?
Shirley Manson:
And people don’t want to appear weak. They don’t want to say, “I’m hurting. I haven’t figured my life out. My marriage is unhappy, my children are unhappy. I’m unhappy.” People don’t want to say that, they feel that they’re failures or they’ll be seen as losers. We’re living currently a climate where winning is everything. Winning. It’s like well, I’m the first person to say well actually things aren’t going so well. We just got dropped by a record label or I don’t know how to do this. How do I fix this? I think some people are scared to do that.
Debbie Millman:
You have your own record label now. You release your own music whenever you want to, however you want to. I was reading an article where you were asked if you miss the trappings of the nineties music industry, the huge platinum sales, the massive budgets, the big music videos. And you said that you did not miss it with one shred of your body, that you did not miss it at all.
Shirley Manson:
Success wasn’t what I thought was going gonna be. I really thought success would change me and turned me into somebody I thought I wasn’t.
Debbie Millman:
Like what?
Shirley Manson:
I thought I’d be Beyonce, perfect. And I became really successful and I was still a little old me. I didn’t feel any better. I didn’t look any better. I didn’t behave any better. Friendships weren’t any better. It was a really interesting ride, and I’m very grateful it happened to me. I don’t want to knock the fact that the success of my band was a great gift, and I feel spectacularly lucky and I’m very grateful for it. But I in no way became married to or attached to everything that came along with people loving on our band. I want people to love on my band. I want people to love the music, because to me that means I have connected with people, and that to me is really important. But money really isn’t that important to me. And status is of complete irrelevance to me. I think it’s ludicrous. People that enjoy status turn my stomach.
Debbie Millman:
Why is that?
Shirley Manson:
Because to me it speaks of power, self elevation. You want to be above someone else, and that’s just not what I believe in. I’m an egalitarian. I believe that all of us, we’re absolutely all the same. We’re all equal. Nobody’s any better than anyone else. Nobody’s any smarter. There’s certainly more intelligent people that, there’s geniuses. There’s great minds that are great scientists, and doctors, and lawyers and God knows what else. Teachers. There’s definitely intelligence, and that’s a gift you’re given. But in terms of smarts, I don’t know. Some of the most intelligent people I’ve ever met are some of the dumbest cats I’ve hung out with. You know what I mean?
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely.
Shirley Manson:
And some of the so called illiterate people I’ve met have got the most incredible skills. People skills and street skills that I’ve ever encountered. So to me, I believe wholeheartedly we’re all the same. Then therefore, elevation and status repulses me. I’m scared of it. I think anyone who enjoys even the slightest amount of status, they are just little seeds waiting to sprout into monsters.
Debbie Millman:
I want to talk to you about being on television and your TV show with Garbage on hiatus. You got a call from a producer that you met at Gwen Stefani’s baby shower, which I just love the visual of that. You subsequently got a job on the Terminator television show, the Sarah Connor Chronicles playing an assassin robot, perfect type casting. Of the move to acting, you’ve said it was great to be in a beginner’s mindset, to not have a clue about the rules, to be scared. And on your last tour in 2005 at the time, you would walk on stage and your blood pressure wouldn’t change. You weren’t excited, and that was sad because it was something that you’d loved so much. You said that you’re terminator character devoid of emotion and filled with power was therapeutic to play at that time. I think it would be therapeutic to play at any time in anybody’s life. I can only fantasize what that would be like.
Shirley Manson:
Well it was funny. I’d got to play a robot with no emotions at exactly the time my beloved mother was dying. And anyone who’s lost a beautiful, amazing person in their life, particularly a mother, understands what that feeling of helplessness is. I was reeling against the gods. I was out of my mind, and yet I could go on set and play this powerful mini act that everyone was terrified of, and she could get anything she wanted to and pretty much change any situation she wanted to. and all I wanted to do was at that time was saved my mother’s life. And as a robot, I fantasized that I could.
Debbie Millman:
If only right?
Shirley Manson:
If only. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve been very candid about how you’ve struggled throughout your life with body dysmorphia, and have said that the sensation of never feeling good enough or pretty enough will always be there. And earlier this year in the impetus for my writing to you about being on Design Matters, you had the opportunity to write an article for the New York Times and they asked you to write a column about a first time of your choosing on any topic you wished. You chose to write about how when you were a young teenager, you began cutting yourself to deal with anxiety, stress, and depression. It was an incredibly emotionally haunting article. The first line of the piece is this. “I didn’t know I was a cutter until the first time I chose to cut.” Shirley, what made you decide to write about that experience? You’ve spoken about it in the past. This was the first time that you actually wrote so in depth about the experience, what you’ve been through.
Shirley Manson:
Well, I was approached by the New York Times through our publicist Brian [inaudible 00:37:54], who’s one of my greatest fans in life. And he’s always trying to push me into, “You need to write, you’re a great writer. You need to go and do a podcast. You’re really good at these kinds of things.” And he I think had persuaded the New York Times to allow me to write one of their columns for this project that they have called firsts, or first time I think it’s called. I was excited to get the opportunity for any writer to write for the New York Times is a big deal. So I took it very seriously. And they asked me about a couple of subjects that I’d be willing to write about. Ironically, I wanted to write about a rescue dog, and I think they just thought I was going to write a boring column about a doggy and loving on a doggy. And of course, that was not my intention at all. But they didn’t want the column on the dog. So I said, “How about I write about being a cutter, self harmer?” And they said that we’d be great, go for it. So I wrote this piece.
Shirley Manson:
And it’s funny because I’ve got so much response from it from people, that was taken aback. Because everyone was like, “You’re so brave. You’re so this.” And the next thing, and I was like, “Let me set you straight. This was not bravery to write about this. This is a communication about something I really feel strongly about, have experienced in, and it’s a subject that’s still an incredible taboo.” I just feel like I want to break out taboo. I feel like there’s no harm in speaking about things even if it’s uncomfortable for some of us. And so I enjoyed writing the piece as it turns out, I took great pleasure in getting to write on such an amazing platform as the New York Times about something I consider very important and is incredibly prevalent, and has now actually become something that’s quite prevalent amongst young men too.
Debbie Millman:
It’s interesting about the notion of bravery. I can understand why people would say that to you. Over the years as I’ve become more comfortable with abuse that I’ve been inflicted with, I’ve been much more vocal about it. But most of my adult life I would say for the first 50 years, maybe even more. I was totally shamed to talk about any of it thinking that I was damaged and that I was somehow inferior just as a human. So I can understand both sides, seeing the strength that it takes to be able to share something that is so painful and has caused so much damage to your life. But then to be on the other side of it and say, “If this can help one person, if this can change some law, if this could put a light on the darkness of this shame, then it’s worth every moment of discomfort to be able to do it.”
Debbie Millman:
I was struck by the candor in the way that you approached it. It was very straightforward, and you closed the article with this paragraph and I’d really like to read it if you don’t mind.
Shirley Manson:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
You say, “Today, I try to remain vigilant against these old thought patterns. I vow to hold my ground. I choose to speak up. I attempt to be kind not only to myself, but also to other people. I surround myself with those who treat me well. I strive to be creative and determine to do things that will make me happy. I believe this is not what we look like that is important, but who we are. It is how we choose to move through this bewildering world of ours that truly matters. And when I struggle with my sense of self as I often do, I some into mine the layers of poem by the great Stanley Kunitz, no doubt the next chapter in my book of transformations is already written. I am not done with my changes.” Thank you for writing that Shirley because I think that you were writing about one specific experience to you. But I think with any self harm or any self destruction or any shame, this is something that could help everyone.
Shirley Manson:
Well it’s funny because I think it’s no coincidence that I wrote this round about the time that the Me Too movement was really prevalent in our culture, and I was starting to get really concerned that the voices of women were again being droned out, and the circus surrounding all these amazing women who were brave enough and defiant enough to come out and stab their spear into their past. I decided that I wanted to put my voice out there too, because I think when you show that you’re willing to illuminate your pain or your shame, then it always helps someone else feel that they have the right to then voice their defiance. I am so a believer in speaking out to destroy shame. Shame is something that festers inside us through our silence, and we must all continue to speak up over and over, and over again as loudly as we can. We must encourage our sisters, our brothers, our children, who are also suffering at the hands of sexual violence. And all colors, all creeds. So I feel strongly that we just all have to continue to pour out our examples of our private chains in inverted commas.
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Shirley Manson:
And then it no longer is shameful because it’s commonplace.
Debbie Millman:
Exactly. It’s only brave before you do it.
Shirley Manson:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I just want to finish our interview today with a quote and one last question. So this is the quote. Looking back this year you said, “I never imagined in my wildest dreams I’d even have the opportunity to have a career this long. I want to show women that you can have a career at this age, because I grew up believing that women were basically tossed at the age of 30. And then I discovered Patti Smith and I discovered Chrissie Hynde and I discovered Debbie Harry, and those women have inspired me to keep on making music to be an artist, be creative in the same way that our male contemporaries do. Men don’t fold up their wings and say goodnight when they’re 30, far from it, never have. I want to say to young generations of women no, you do not disappear. You hold your ground and you develop skills beyond your good looks. Because ultimately those are the skills, that propel you into having long careers. And I feel so strongly about it and so adamantly about it that I’m not going anywhere anytime soon.” Thank you for that Shirley.
Shirley Manson:
I have my fist in the air.
Debbie Millman:
Yes you do. And I would too if I weren’t holding so many damn things right now. So this is the last thing I wanted to ask you, it’s about a statement in an interview you did quite a while back. You said that you’d like the following written on your tombstone. “See? I told you so.”
Shirley Manson:
It’s true. I still want that on my stone.
Debbie Millman:
Tell me why. Why that line?
Shirley Manson:
Just as a silly, and funny, and truthful point that I’ve always said we’re gonna die. We’re gonna die. So make life count. We’re gonna die. We’re gonna die. So make it good. Make it adventurous. Again, obviously I’m 52 years old and I have to figure out my next half century, and I’ll be damned if it’s going to be boring. I feel like it is done to me to try and make it better than my first half. And quite frankly, I didn’t enjoy being young particularly so I feel like the odds are on me. I feel like I can make my second half of my century if I’m lucky to live that long, a good one.
Debbie Millman:
No doubt Shirley. No doubt. There’s a t-shirt I’m going to send you. It says 50 as fuck.
Shirley Manson:
That sounds amazing. Please give me that.
Debbie Millman:
Shirley Manson, thank you so much for creating so much wonderful work in this world and thank you for being on this very special episode of Design Matters in Puebla, Mexico.
Shirley Manson:
Thank you for having me. It’s been an honor.
Debbie Millman:
For more information about Shirley Manson, go to www.garbage.com. This is the 14th year I’ve been doing Design Matters, and I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
Speaker 2:
For more information about Design Matters or to subscribe to our newsletter, go to debbiemillman.com. If you love this podcast, please consider contributing to our drip Kickstarter community. Members get early access to the podcast, transcripts of every interview, invitations to live interviews, Q&A sessions with guests, and a brand new annual magazine. You can learn more about this at d.rip/debbie-millman. That’s d.rip/debbie-millman. And if you really liked this podcast, please write a review in the iTunes store and link to the podcast on social media. Design Matters is produced by Curtis Fox productions. The show is published exclusively by designobserver.com and record it at the School of Visual Arts, masters in branding program in New York City. The editor in chief of design matters media is Zachary [Pettit 00:46:57], and the art director is Emily [Weiland 00:47:00]. Generous support for design matters media is provided by Adobe XD and wix.com.