Joan Wasser shares her musical journey from a classically trained violinist to a solo singer, songwriter, and rock star known as Joan As Police Woman.
Debbie Millman:
Joan Wasser began as a violinist. A classically trained violinist. But in her 20s, she came to New York and started playing as a session musician in many musical genres. She also learned guitar and started singing in various bands. By 2002 she took on the performing moniker, Joan As Police Woman. Ever since she’s been touring, making albums and collaborating with musicians and performers, including Rufus Wainwright, Lori Anderson, Lou Reed, and many more. She’s here to talk about her most recent album and the road she’s taken to get here. Joan Wasser, welcome to Design Matters.
Joan Wasser:
Hello. So good to be here.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, I’ve been waiting for this for a long time.
Joan Wasser:
Me too.
Debbie Millman:
Joan, I understand you spent your childhood convinced you were going to follow the cursed footsteps of your namesake, Joan of Arc, and die by fire. Why did you think that?
Joan Wasser:
Probably just because I’m dramatic. I mean, there were not very many other people my age named Joan. So I figured if I had that name, there was a reason and it might mean that I’d make it … I mean, it was probably some sort of romantic notion of not making it into my 20s. Of course, I would just die by 19 or whatever.
Debbie Millman:
Well, she died when she was 17.
Joan Wasser:
Oh, 17.
Debbie Millman:
So when you were 17, did you stop worrying?
Joan Wasser:
I did. I did. I was a little bit like, darn. It would’ve been such a good way to go out.
Debbie Millman:
Oh my God. No it wouldn’t. Then you wouldn’t have done what you’re doing. My God. No, no, no. I don’t like that. I don’t like that [inaudible 00:01:49].
Joan Wasser:
Okay. It didn’t happen so.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. You were born in Maine to an unmarried teenage girl who hid her pregnancy from her family until she was in her eighth month. Then were put up for adoption when you were three weeks old. The couple that adopted you, your parents, first met in a community chorus when they were 31 and 35. Is it true that they were each other’s one and only first love?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. It’s extraordinary.
Debbie Millman:
So they met in a choir, but had never been previously in love by the time they were in their 30s. So they were just waiting for each other.
Joan Wasser:
It seemed so. Yeah. I mean, my father was very, very introverted. My mom was too in a very different way. She was a Latin and French teacher. She was … What’s the word? Her parents … She feels like the ultimate Puritan. Actually Puritan. Non-religious but very moral. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
They adopted your brother Daniel a bit over a year later and they explained to you that you were both adopted before you even understood what it meant so that you wouldn’t feel like you were weird or different. And you’ve said that growing up in a family where there are no blood ties creates a certain way of experiencing the world. And I’m wondering if you can share in what way.
Joan Wasser:
It really solidified the idea that family is who you are with. And family are the people that take care of you and that you take care of and that you share love with. I don’t think anyone realizes how much stress there is on the idea of being related to the rest of your family while growing up. Oh, you look so much like your mom. You get this from your father, la, la. And my brother and I not only didn’t look like each other, neither of us looked like our parents. People would try to tell Dan and I that we weren’t each other’s sibling. And I just came out pretty gregarious and social. My brother is the opposite. So I would just be saying, “No, that’s my brother. End of story.” So growing up in that way, definitely gave me the feeling that it really … The ultimate chosen family. They chose to pick us up from the adoption agency. They couldn’t have kids. They told the agency, “We’ll take your first two.”
Debbie Millman:
And they were uninterested in whatever race or gender. They were completely open to whoever the children that were brought there would be.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. That was very much their idea about what life was. Both of them very unique in my opinion, in that way. I think a lot of people feel like they’d like to be that way, but they really were that way. I mean, my mom joked that she was surprised that they got a white girl.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
It’s so interesting the way we sort of construct the ties. I remember growing up and for whatever reason, I’m almost visually a clone of my mother.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And I show people pictures of me growing up next to my mother and they think that my mother is me. Like, “Wow. Oh my God, you look exactly like your mother.” And when I was a little girl, I resented that.
Joan Wasser:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
I didn’t want to look like her because I wanted to be my own person. And I remember having a tantrum once in my grandmother’s house. My grandmother had one of those typical family photo walls. And she had a picture of my mother as a little girl at the age I was then and a slightly less recent picture of me. And I insisted that the picture of my mother was me. And they were like, “No, that’s your mother.” And I’m like, “No, that’s me.” Because I didn’t want to look like her. And it’s so interesting how we construct our identities and our needs to be witness to our origins somehow. I don’t know if I’m making any sense but I think there’s something kind of fascinating about who we want to and don’t want to look like and why.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah, it’s true. I remember my mother being very annoyed at other mothers in the supermarket commenting, “Oh, you got such a cute Chinese girl.” I looked very Asian when I was young because my eyes sort of do that thing that sometimes happens with Asian-
Debbie Millman:
Well they’re just very almond shaped.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. And I mean, she was just so annoyed that there was any comments at all. It was just like-
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I mean, whose business is it?
Joan Wasser:
Exactly.
Debbie Millman:
You ultimately did meet your birth parents when you were older and said that they were both incredible people with families of their own. You became good friends. You found out that your biological mother also played music and your biological father had been an electric bass player. He dropped out of school to tour locally with his band. What was that like for you to see that continuation of genetics?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. So to start with, my mother and I did not share a lot of personality traits. It was at times very difficult growing up for both of us to reconcile those differences. I was sort of the perfect child until 11 when I began to exert behavior that she felt was inappropriate. It was all about just school. It was just only school. And I was very social. So when I met my mom first when I was 20, it was … Well, first of all, when I found her she sent a letter actually to my parents’ house. And my mom said, “You sent a letter here?” I was like, “What are you talking about?” And it was from my biological mom, Cindy. We have the same handwriting. Crazy stuff like that that you don’t know is necessarily genetic. And we also do all the same things with our … Gestural stuff is the same.
So you don’t realize that that’s just passed through your DNA. But I am a product of my biological parents. You can see it in both of them. I have traits from both of them. And I am very grateful that I got to grow up not seeing them. I mean, I had no choice. But it was really fun then being an adult and finding out who I was in a certain way through them. Because I always just had to create a composite of who I was. Okay, these things.
I don’t think I ever thought, oh, my mother’s going to have these things of mine or whatever because who knows. Maybe she would’ve been someone even less like the mom I grew up with. So to find out that actually they were very similar to me in personality and body type, walking, all the just crazy things. And yes, they both played music. My biological mom would not have played music if she had the choice. Her mom made all of her, she had four older sisters, play either the piano or the violin. So she said … I don’t care … She was a visual artist. My biological father on the other hand did play electric bass and dropped out of school for a while to tour with … I think he was 13 when he dropped out of school. This was in rural Maine so it was … Yeah. Different vibe.
Debbie Millman:
You grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut. And while your parents really loved music and were in the choir, they didn’t believe in pushing you to do anything if you didn’t want to do it. Nevertheless, you took a liking to the violin when you were in the third grade and rented one from your school for $10 a year. Why the violin?
Joan Wasser:
Well, this is public school in the ’70s so that’s what was provided for. If you didn’t have money, anyone could rent an instrument for $10 a year. So there’s no reason why you wouldn’t play. They came to the auditorium and did a presentation of here’s what the violin sounds like and the viola and I was like, “I want the most portable one.”
Debbie Millman:
The one you can carry around.
Joan Wasser:
Pretty much that’s what it was. Yeah. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Your family also had an upright piano and your parents would play and sing old American songs. And I believe you still have that piano.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. In my house.
Debbie Millman:
In your home and have written almost everything you’ve ever written on that piano.
Joan Wasser:
That’s right.
Debbie Millman:
I believe you started taking piano lessons at six, even before taking up the violin. You also now play the guitar and the bass. Do you prefer one instrument over another?
Joan Wasser:
Well, first of all, the piano lessons were about maybe two or three piano lessons. I was not feeling the piano so I didn’t really take piano lessons.
Debbie Millman:
Okay.
Joan Wasser:
What’s really fun for me is that because I studied in school the violin and really know my way around that instrument, learning other instruments that I don’t know my way around, it makes writing on them really fun because I’m not set up knowing, oh, this is what’s supposed to come next. There’s no previous … I took no lessons of those instruments so it’s really like I’m just traipsing around the mountain range, looking for the most beautiful vantage point or flowers or whatever on every instrument. That’s what it feels like.
Debbie Millman:
That’s sort of how Joni Mitchell learned how to play the guitar, which is why she has those crazy unusual tunings. By the time you were 13 years old, I believe that Mahler’s 2nd Resurrection Symphony was one of your favorite things to play. Really?
Joan Wasser:
Well, this is what happened. There was an all state orchestra where they pull-
Debbie Millman:
I know. I know you were in all state. I have to talk to you about that. I was in all state chorus.
Joan Wasser:
Oh, of course you were. Where they pull from the state of the so-called best musicians. So the conductor, he decided that he was going to teach us that first movement of Mahler Two. And it was the greatest choice because that music is perfect for adolescents, for just raging hormones and high drama is what it is.
Debbie Millman:
I was thinking it was very apocalypse now.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it starts with those cellos. Yeah, it’s ridiculous. I love it. But he really empowered us to believe that we could play this very advanced music. And we’re between 13 and 17. We had all played a certain amount of music, but in general it was pretty light. And all of a sudden he’s saying we can make this thing happen together. That idea of all of us working really hard together. He taught us to breathe together. Paying attention to each other more than paying attention to even him.
It was the greatest lesson and experience of my life really up until then. I had been so moved by so much music on the radio and I would buy so much vinyl at the Goodwill. 25 cents a pop. And had heard all this music and stuff. But to be in the auditorium creating this with these other people and this guy with this crazy Beethoven-ish hair saying you have what this piece needs to make it really sing and really come alive. And we felt that coming alive together as a group. I talk about this being the moment I felt I knew what people were talking about when they said God.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, I love that. I love that. That sort of bigger than yourself, bigger than the universe feeling. You said that your conductor empowered the orchestra to take music seriously in a way that you didn’t think any of you had ever considered. How did he do that?
Joan Wasser:
Well, he first of all told us that we all had to make a pact with each other to be dedicated to creating this together. So if one person was distracted by … I don’t know.
Debbie Millman:
Their iPhone.
Joan Wasser:
Not then.
Debbie Millman:
No. I know. I’m teasing.
Joan Wasser:
I know. I don’t even know what we are distracted by then because it seems like there’s nothing more distracting than what we have now.
Debbie Millman:
Hormones.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. Just distracted by anything else. Passing notes. Yeah, anything. That the music would lose its power. So it was like we must trust. There was a trust that he told us we needed to have amongst people that didn’t know each other, which is really important to me in general. But so much the breathing before you play. Everyone around you. If all the violins enter at the same time, then you hit it together. And that is such a profound experience. I had never breathed with anyone else. Yoga was not popular then. There was no breathing techniques. None of that was happening. So to have someone tell me that this would work if I breathed with the person next to me was really huge. I mean, that’s what we’ve got the most basic stuff. It happens without our permission, but we have control over that. And that we could decide to take ourselves seriously.
Debbie Millman:
That’s amazing to be given that permission to take this artistic pursuit more seriously than you’d ever considered before.
Joan Wasser:
That’s right. It was.
Debbie Millman:
You went to Boston University College of Fine Arts at 18 and studied music under Yuri Mazurkevich and you also played with the Boston University Symphony Orchestra. But I understand you also studied anthropology, which you liked very much. Was that something that you ever seriously considered doing? Was it a safety backup? Did you at that point feel that you wanted to pursue music professionally?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. I chose that school because I could take anthropology as a minor or whatever. I never considered doing anything besides music. I just loved anthropology. So I wanted to be at a place where I could also study that. Also my teacher, he studied with David Oistrakh, a major solo violinist. And I wanted to study with one of his students because I felt like that was what I lacked in my musicality. The sort of Russian tradition. Incredibly graceful. And I did not feel graceful. I knew I had passion. I knew I had conviction, but I wanted to learn what that was. The gracefulness. It’s funny even saying that I was thinking that way then but I really wanted to study with him because of that. And he was really … Yeah. He was a really special teacher. He really helped me a lot.
Debbie Millman:
By the time you were 20, you joined The Dambuilders. But as their electric violinist, the music you were making was decidedly non-classical. It was punk rock. Talk about that trajectory or that migration from classical violinist to punk violinist.
Joan Wasser:
So through high school, I had a blonde Mohawk. I was very … I loved music so much. It was my life. I went to so many shows, small and big. I lived near New York City so I would take the train in and see Siouxsie and The Banshees and Echo & the Bunnymen and The Peers before they were The Peers that are now. I knew that the classical music world, I would find a couple of people that were like minded. And a lot of them were not so like minded. It didn’t mean that I wouldn’t get along with him. But I remember at orientation looking around and thinking, “Oh boy, where’s my person here?” And then I saw her from across the room. She had a babushka on and red lipstick and I was like, “There’s my person.”
I went over to her and I said, “What’s up?” She said, “My name’s Mary.” She was from DC. We’re really good friends still.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Joan Wasser:
She was there to study classical violin. And she had been playing in bands for a long time because she was a guitar player. So really quickly she said, “Let’s play together.” She was living in a terrible dorm so I got her over in my dorm. And then she was like, “Let’s make music.” I had really very rarely not played off a page. As a classical musician you’re taught to read music and play what’s on the page. And yes, you can bring yourself into that. But jazz musicians are taught to improvise. Classical musicians are not. Which is crazy. But whatever, this is how the education’s been or the separateness of genre, which is, thank god, becoming antiquated, which is really fun for me personally.
So I had jammed along with Hendrix and The Cocteau Twins. That was it.
Debbie Millman:
That’s pretty amazing though.
Joan Wasser:
Well, it was the music that felt … I mean The Cocteau Twins you can imagine, right?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Joan Wasser:
It’s so ambient, spacey. Yeah. Hendrix I just loved so much and I felt like I could … I just wanted to learn his solo. So those were the two ends. But she empowered me to play what I heard, which was so scary. It’s so funny to think about now, because this is all I do now when I’m writing. When I’m writing. But again, it’s like learning to trust myself in a way that I had never imagined I’d have to. Oh, Joan just read the music and you’ll be fine. And then all of a sudden you take that music away and you’re left with who am I?
Debbie Millman:
What do I want to express?
Joan Wasser:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
How do I want to express it? Interesting that you were so attracted to Mahler given how dramatic it is. Despite it being classical. It’s sort of a … I think you had referred to it as the Led Zeppelin of its time.
Joan Wasser:
Absolutely. I do think of it like that. Yeah. Yeah. So we played together, but she was my in in terms of playing non classical music. Then when I got going with that, I was living in Boston so there was all these opportunities. Berkeley School of Music needed violin players to learn to record them. The recording engineers that were … This reggae band needs some strings laid down on this one track. That was the time when there were just bulletin boards up at music schools like this needed for this. I’ll trade you for this. Whatever. So I just started taking advantage of the place that I was living in, which was just full of students and full of music students of all different kinds. So that was really fun. That was my first year of being at school. I just started taking advantage of the fact that I could do all these different kinds of music. And I was pretty fearless about it once I caught the wave or something. It’s just like, oh, whatever. If I don’t know how to do this, I’ll figure it out or I’ll be crappy and that’s fine.
Debbie Millman:
One thing I wanted to ask you about, you mentioned your white mohawk. And I remember reading in my research that your mother didn’t mind you having a white mohawk. She was worried that people would think less of you or not take you as seriously as a musician with the white mohawk. Is that true?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. She was really funny because my person really sent her into conflict in herself in so many ways. I really just … Ugh. Really challenged her. I didn’t mean it, but it’s what happened. So the idea was any way you look is okay. That’s what she wanted to think. That’s what she felt was right. But on the other side, she worried that I would be judged by others. To me, that meant mom, you’re judging people. Actually it’s you. I also understand. She wanted me to have all the opportunities that she thought I could have if people saw who I was.
Debbie Millman:
Right. But they were seeing who you were, just not who she thought you were.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. Some people were and absolutely some people were not. Some people did not want someone with blonde, short, crazy hair, very obviously placed in the orchestra. So some people did. I always wore pants and some conductors loved that and some conductors thought that was really just inappropriate. So I mean, I attracted the people that liked difference, but my mom was really challenged by it.
Debbie Millman:
You started touring with The Dambuilders and even left school for a bit to go on the road. You played at Lollapalooza and the band got signed to Elektra in 1994 by Sylvia Rhone, the great industry powerhouse. What was that time like for you then?
Joan Wasser:
So the guitar player in the band, Eric Masunaga, he owned this amazing … I’m going to get silly technical. He owned a two inch 16 track old studer machine. So I was recording early on on this old beautiful machine that they used to record the most amazing records until then. So this was before Pro Tools, Logic, any of that. We started just doing a lot of recording and there were all these singles only labels. It was so DIY. And then we got signed. A lot of arty bands got signed in the ’90s because the music industry was flush. There was all this money just getting put into supporting music that wasn’t necessarily obvious. And what was cool is we got to take advantage of that. We made a number of records on an actual major label budget. Kept a little bit of money on the side to live off of while we were on tour. Had tour support. I mean, it’s unheard of now. All of this. Unless you’re-
Debbie Millman:
Beyonce.
Joan Wasser:
I don’t even know who it is. Beyonce. Unless you’re Beyonce, you don’t get that anymore. It was really fun.
Debbie Millman:
You said this about the experience. “Just being around men all the time. I had such a tough guy problem.” And the band even had as a single from 1994 with the same title and you stated, “The route I took was I can drink you under the table, I can carry that bass cabinet by myself. No, I’m not someone’s girlfriend in the band. Thank you and fuck off.”
Joan Wasser:
That’s absolutely right.
Debbie Millman:
Did you encounter a lot of shock from people being in such a sort of all boys except you punk band?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. I mean, it was mostly men doing everything and it was really boring. That part of it that every time I entered a club, most likely I was going to get confused as a girlfriend. Yeah, I did sort of, I can out male you. Which is the only way I knew how to react. Also I was very angry anyway. It’s like, I didn’t have to push that. I was definitely angrier than all the boys in the band. So it’s not like that was a stretch at all.
Debbie Millman:
Joan, in 1994, the musician, Jeff Buckley shared a bill with The Dambuilders. And this was about a month before his debut album, Grace, came out. The two of you fell in love. Was it love at first sight?
Joan Wasser:
It’s so silly, but it was really mutual what are you? I don’t even know what love at first sight means because definitely it was very romantic. Later that night after that show, we all went to a late night eatery place. And this is in Iowa City and there’s a lot of jockey guys around. And I had this crazy humongous hair. Big black hair with a big white streak in the front. Very cartoon character. Very ’90s. And these guys were making fun of me, which whatever. I was so used to that. And Jeff, who was a very slight person, he was little, he went right up to them and said, “You wouldn’t know a woman if she smacked you in the face.” And I was like, “Okay, I love you.” And that’s what I was thinking. But of course I was also annoyed that this person thought that they had to defend me. I was like, I can defend myself.
Debbie Millman:
Interesting. Interesting.
Joan Wasser:
Now, I would’ve been like … I don’t care about that. But then I literally was like, I will crush you if you fuck with me.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. Absolutely. I’m still like that.
Joan Wasser:
Yes. It was kind of scary.
Debbie Millman:
When did you realize that you were going to be a couple?
Joan Wasser:
I mean, I think we both thought it that night. Again, then it’s payphones.
Debbie Millman:
Right. Of course.
Joan Wasser:
Payphones.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. There weren’t even faxes at that time.
Joan Wasser:
No. Yeah. And we are both touring so we didn’t know where each other were on the … I mean, it was … But yeah.
Debbie Millman:
It also sounds terribly romantic.
Joan Wasser:
It was terribly romantic. Yeah. We had both been told about each other before that night.
Debbie Millman:
So you were sort of waiting for each other too?
Joan Wasser:
Well, my friend said, “Joan, I met this guy named Jeff Buckley.” And I was like, “Hold on. That’s a fake name.” And he was like, “Actually I don’t think it is. I think it’s actually his given name.” And I was like, “I don’t believe it.” “Well, you guys are supposed to be together.” And I was like, a total eyeball roll. And I was like, “Okay. Right.” And then I saw his name on the tour book that we carried around and I was like, “Is that that guy that Nathan told me about?” I was like, “Nah.” And then it was.
Debbie Millman:
What did you think of his music when you first heard it?
Joan Wasser:
So I mean, I heard it for the first time then, because nothing was released or if it was, I had never heard it. Maybe an EP was released, but it was … Actually, he gave … Oh, I forgot that. He gave me the EP that night. I’m not even sure that was released yet.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Joan Wasser:
Anyway.
Debbie Millman:
He wanted to impress you.
Joan Wasser:
Oh yes. Oh. He stared at me the entire time he did a show.
Debbie Millman:
Well, that’s not surprising Joan. I’m staring at you the entire time now.
Joan Wasser:
Wait, but I’m staring at you too. It was very much … We hit it off. And his music … I mean, I was both unbelievably impressed. He was an extraordinary guitar player. I don’t know if … I mean, all he did was practice guitar his whole life. People know him as a heartthrob. He was an absolute nerd in high school. He was not Jeff Buckley in high school. He was practicing. I was really impressed and then I was also just like, man, just a crooner. The voice. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
You were there as Grace was launched and now is considered one of the greatest albums of all time. What do you think of that now, looking back on the release of the music then, how it’s become so mythologized?
Joan Wasser:
Well, it was not a success then. Of course people knew about it and people loved it and it got a lot of great reviews and some not. It was very different than anything else coming out. A refined voice and a very subtle string arrangement or something. That is not what people were going for at that time. So he was really out of style in a certain way. Also, he was so young. He was young in age, but he was very, very young to be a person that was … Someone that was just practicing in his room and with his bands in LA and stuff. And then all of a sudden his label really pushed him as this is an incredible talent and also look at how beautiful he is. He was horrified by that. He was horrified. So I remember when People Magazine chose him as part of their 50 most … Or whatever.
Debbie Millman:
50 most beautiful people in the world.
Joan Wasser:
I’ve never seen him more just appalled. We went around to every newsstand within a five block radius of his apartment. He lived in the east village. And he bought every single one so that no one would see it.
Debbie Millman:
Did you write and play music together?
Joan Wasser:
We did a lot in his apartment.
Debbie Millman:
After three years together, you were engaged. On May 29th, 1997 Jeff was in Memphis recording his follow up to Grace and he went for a spontaneous swim in the Mississippi River. He got caught in the wake of a tugboat and accidentally drowned. How did you manage?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah, I didn’t really.
Debbie Millman:
I’m sorry if this is difficult and you don’t want to talk about it.
Joan Wasser:
No. It’s okay. It’s all right. I’m thinking about it all the time anyway. And the thing is the 25 year anniversary of this happening is coming up in a couple of days. So how did I manage? Yeah, it’s a good question because I wasn’t super close with my parents at that point. He was my best friend. He was not only my boyfriend, et cetera, but he was my best friend. So I lost the person that I would go to if something like this happened. He was an incredibly private person so I had learned and I really liked that we had an incredibly private life. Especially around him getting more and more attention. We became more and more just private, which was great. But I was lost. I mean, this event so radically changed the trajectory of my life and threw me into … It just feels like it just threw me into a volcano and it’s like figure it out. I mean, I can say 25 years later that I … I mean I’ll never stop figuring it out, but it was really touch and go at times and I have successfully stayed alive. Which feels literally like wow.
Debbie Millman:
Now that’s a gift for all of us Joan. It is. I mean, grief is such a complicated and terrifying experience to carry with you because it takes a long time to metabolize, if at all. I can’t even imagine what it would be like to lose a lover. Somebody who was embedded in your blood in that way. How do you integrate that grief into life? Is it something that you can think about without pain ever?
Joan Wasser:
Sometimes. Sometimes yeah. I remember at the time … I don’t remember who it was, but an adult. I didn’t feel like an adult. I was 26. I felt like a kid.
Debbie Millman:
You weren’t an adult.
Joan Wasser:
No. My cerebral cortex was just-
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. I think I was in ameba until I was about 30.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. But I remember a caring adult saying, “You will never get over this.” And it was so helpful because there was no way I thought that I would get over it. And other people were like, “Oh, he’ll be with you inside you forever.” All these things.
Debbie Millman:
Don’t you want to stab those people?
Joan Wasser:
Well, they’re doing the best they can.
Debbie Millman:
They are. You’re being more generous than I am.
Joan Wasser:
Well, no, but nobody knows. We’re not taught how to deal with it. So I mean, that could have helped someone else. It didn’t help me because it didn’t ring true. So when this person said, “It will change, but you’ll never ever get rid of it. You’ll never get over it. You’ll never not feel the grief otherwise.”, that was such a gift because I felt like someone was being honest with me and I needed that so bad then. And I did drugs that helped me get through that time. Drugs saved my life. They of course become a problem. But at that moment I wouldn’t have survived. At one point, without any drugs, I remember becoming coherent of the fact that I was in the middle of an intersection and I didn’t know how I got there. When you have that amount of grief, your body takes over and says, “You can’t handle this. You actually can’t handle it. Do what you have to do to make it through.” And that could mean your life ends.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I had a terrible, terrible … I was left by my spouse in 1998, very unexpectedly. 24 hours. I always described it as an earthquake. Just an earthquake came into my life and then everything was crushed. And I remember weeping to my therapist at the time, “How long is it going to take for me to get over this?” Because I couldn’t comprehend the level of grief that I was feeling. And she said it would be about two years before I could sort of manage. And I was so upset and could not comprehend what that meant for my life. P.S., it ended up taking five years.
Joan Wasser:
I think five years is always the thing that when … Five years is the place where you’re like, oh, now I can start thinking.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. And the amount of self destructive behavior that I went through at that time from 1998 to 2003 … Really into 2004 if I need to be … Maybe even into 2005. It petered out, but it was not good. And I really could have my fucked my life up. I really got lucky in that regard. I’m glad that you’re here too.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
The Dambuilders disbanded in October of ’97 and later that year you formed the band Black Beetle with members of Jeff’s band. And you’ve said that the motivation behind doing this was medicating your sadness. But the experience also motivated you to begin singing and writing your own songs. What was the entry point into doing that?
Joan Wasser:
Again, I had more pain than I knew what to do with and playing the violin was not covering it in any way. I couldn’t have any longer an instrument between my heart and the world. I never wanted to sing. That was way too revealing. I had no interest. Any opening of my mouth that I did in the Dambuilders was screaming and yelling. Literally. So all of a sudden I didn’t have control over it. I had to sing. It was how I helped myself stay alive.
Debbie Millman:
You also joined the band, Those Bastard Souls, and recorded an album titled Debt & Departure with Dave Shouse. This is also when you began working as a session musician and you played violin across a range of genres, as we’ve mentioned before. Including Haitian, pop, R&B. You played with John Cale. You played with Lou Reed. What was it like to begin to collaborate with these folks who you had sort of grown up with listening to their music?
Joan Wasser:
It was pretty trippy. Yeah, it really-
Debbie Millman:
I saw a picture of you and Lou Reed. He’s talking to someone and you’re talking to someone and you’re all clearly in the same little club. And I was like, wow, that must have felt amazing.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. It was really … It was scary. I was really afraid to be around these people and I had that thing of like, I’m not supposed to be here. Imposter syndrome. But clearly I was because I kept getting called, kept being trusted to do this work, which was … I mean, it was really helpful. That was helpful. All of the music that happened … The music has always just saved me. But especially then, and all of those mind blowing experiences with other artists helped me feel like life was worth living and staying alive for.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
In 1999, you joined the band, formally known as Antony and the Johnsons, now Anohni’s Ensemble and recorded the album I Am A Bird Now. You’ve said that working with Anohni saved you. How did she do that?
Joan Wasser:
So up until that time, all the music I made was pretty loud. Joining Anohni’s band, it was the opposite. Everything was quiet. She wanted everything quieter. Make it sound like a snowflake hitting the water. Just analogy after analogy just of quieter. And then on top of it, her voice sounds like someone crying. So having that at that moment, this quiet music with someone crying so beautifully over it, it was the soundtrack of my insides and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. I was like, oh, someone else feels like this. Also the ensemble that she put together was a really, really special group of people. A family that was life changing. Yes.
Debbie Millman:
You also began touring with Rufus Wainwright for his Want One and Want Two albums. And I read that your second gig with Rufus was at the Beacon Theater in New York. And you’ve said that it was the most terrifying moments in your life. I knew that you’d seen Nina Simone there and Leonard Cohen there. You don’t even remember it now I think because you were so terrified. What was so scary for you being there?
Joan Wasser:
Well, I was opening. I was supporting him. So I was opening solo. My own music.
Debbie Millman:
So that was the first time at the Beacon Theater with him?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. I joined his band in 2004 and I toured with him for almost two years on those records that are just masterpieces.
Debbie Millman:
Masterpieces. He’s a genius.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah, he is.
Debbie Millman:
He is an absolute genius.
Joan Wasser:
Yep. Absolutely. And so there was another woman, we were alternating opening gigs. So one night she would open, one night I would open. So she opened the first show, wherever that was. I have no memory of what that was because it didn’t matter. The second gig that we played, I was doing my first support slot with Rufus at the Beacon Theater.
Debbie Millman:
Talk about big time.
Joan Wasser:
I remember absolutely what I wore and I remember doing my hair so well. It was so overwhelming. And because of the history and because of the fact that I was on stage by myself, playing these songs that I had pretty recently written, it was impossible for me to digest really.
Debbie Millman:
So did Rufus come to you and say, “Joan, it’s time. You need to be on your own. You need to be performing.”? Did it happen organically? How did that happen?
Joan Wasser:
I mean he needed someone who could sing, play violin and play guitar. At that time there were not that many people in New York City that actually could do all those things. So I auditioned for him and I got hired and I had just completed my EP. Actually I rushed to complete it to leave for tour in February. I manufactured them myself and I sold them at the shows for probably $5. He didn’t care about me opening. He was like, “I need a violin player that can sing and play acoustic and electric.” So I got hired and then I was opening the show. So it just was coincidental. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
You talked about the process of learning to sing and I read that it was really hard for you. You were really feeling very vulnerable about singing. At the time you were yearning to sing like Sam Cooke. You felt that he has the most remarkable sound you ever heard. And I read that you yearned to sing without embellishment. That you felt that any melisma you found yourself doing was merely a way to cover up some deficiency in your voice. What did you think was deficient about your voice? So this is a three part question. What did you think was deficient about your voice? How did you ultimately find your voice, which is so soulful and sexy and stunning? And that’s my feeling about it. What do you think of it now?
Joan Wasser:
I’m so glad. Okay. Trying to figure out who I was as a singer was a very complicated path because of the fact that I felt I had been surrounded by the greatest singers of my time. Jeff, Anohni, Rufus. What do I have to give? Who wants to listen to me? And so I wanted to figure out what my voice sounded like when I wasn’t trying to mimic someone else. I could just sing it totally straight and you’d feel it. How can I take off all the frosting and all the stuff and just give you the cake? Just the plain thing. How can I do it as plain as possible because I felt like that would be the most potent.
Debbie Millman:
So you had your EP, you’re touring with Rufus, you decide you want to stop drinking. At the same time you are recording Real Life, your first full length album. Your engineer accidentally loses … I think it was the bass and the drums.
Joan Wasser:
No. The bass and the drums were remained.
Debbie Millman:
The voice.
Joan Wasser:
Everything I did, all my wurlitzer playing, all my strings, all my guitar playing, all my singing, all of Anohni’s vocals actually as well. Everything besides the bass drums-
Debbie Millman:
Was lost.
Joan Wasser:
Was lost. But what was incredible is that I had really … Most of the record was done when that happened. But it happened just right after I got sober.
Debbie Millman:
I mean talk about serendipity I think.
Joan Wasser:
It’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful because I remember how horrified … I’m still really close with the engineer. I made this last record that I made with him. He’s one of my close friends. But I remember the producer saying, “Joan, I have something to tell you.” And I could tell it was something bad. And I was like, “Bryce, what?” And he said, “For some reason none of your stuff was backed up and the hard drive crashed and we’ve done all of the data recovery and nothing’s there.” And I remember having the feeling like, “Okay, that’s all right.” Because I had just gotten sober, everything was felt so … I had the new drug of clarity where I was not hungover anymore. And I was just like, “Okay.” So then I had to record the whole thing again.
Debbie Millman:
Do you think that there was a really big difference in the tones of the first recording versus the second?
Joan Wasser:
I have no idea.
Debbie Millman:
Oh. Because you don’t have any record.
Joan Wasser:
I don’t know. I don’t have a record. But what I know is that I was a person that was no longer killing herself slowly with substances. I was no longer that person. It was like I got reborn and then was given the opportunity to make my first record again.
Debbie Millman:
Right. Wow.
Joan Wasser:
I know. It was really-
Debbie Millman:
Such a gift.
Joan Wasser:
It really was.
Debbie Millman:
You released your EP Joan As Police Woman in 2004, which was a name that is an homage to the 1974 television cop show starring Angie Dickinson. Now, I know I’m 10 years older than you so I actually watched that show in real time when it came out. The world was enamored with Angie Dickinson. It was the first time there was a drama series focusing solely on a woman. She was over 40. She was knock dead gorgeous but she was also over 40. I think a friend of yours saw you in a baby blue three piece suit and said, “You channeling your police woman today?” And that’s how the name stuck.
Joan Wasser:
That’s right. I was blonde and I had a polyester three piece suit on. Yeah, Ruben. My very close still friend Ruben said, “Joan, you’re channeling Angie from police woman.” And I was like, that’s the name.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. She was really one of the sexiest women of that time. I was 13 when that show came out so I was obsessed. Obsessed.
Joan Wasser:
Of course.
Debbie Millman:
Initially Joan As Police Woman started as a duo with Ben Perowsky on drums. And eventually you added the great, great Rainy Orteca on bass. Just as a sidebar, Rainy helped create the sound studio that we are sitting in. I adore Rainy. She is also a genius.
Joan Wasser:
She sure is.
Debbie Millman:
And just hey Rainy. In case you’re listening. We’re here with a thread between us. That’s you. In 2006, you released Real Life. It was released to great fanfare. Great reviews. What was it like to be suddenly be the center of attention with so much adulation?
Joan Wasser:
Really strange because I knew that my family and my friends would hear the record and that was plenty. I just thought I have to do this, but I did not have any expectations. I made a pact with myself that I would … Okay, I’m doing my own music. I’m going to do it exactly how I want. Which somewhere that meant no one was going to listen to it. You know?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I read that you were surprised that people liked it.
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. I was. And it made me feel less alone that people liked it. It was a really cool feeling. I was like, “Oh, people can relate to this? I’m so glad.” It was a very different feeling than I would’ve imagined. I wasn’t expecting it. That’s it. I was not expecting it.
Debbie Millman:
It’s a great album. I’m wondering if you can play a song from that album for us.
Joan Wasser:
Oh my god. Right. I’m playing a song. I forgot.
Debbie Millman:
We’re both sitting here barefoot. It’s so much fun to be able to do that with a guest.
Joan Wasser:
All right. This is a song called We Don’t Own It and I wrote it for Elliot Smith.
Debbie Millman:
Oh wow.
Joan Wasser:
Elliot opened a whole tour for us. I mean, he was living in New York so I knew him from just music. But he sat on the stool with his acoustic guitar and played often with a lot of people in the crowd talking over him. This was before that Goodwill whatever it’s called came out and he became more of a household name. He is incredibly shy person and very introverted. I think everybody knew he had tried to kill himself a bunch of times. That was sort of common knowledge. Then when he finally succeeded, just what happened, the aftermath of that was so disturbing that I wrote this song just in light of that situation. So let’s see if I can do this.
(singing)
Debbie Millman:
You’ve since recorded nine studio albums, two albums of cover songs, a few live albums. Your covers are so unique. You have a way of remaking songs. Sort of the way I think Alan Cumming remade Joel Grey’s role of the MC in Cabaret. With Funny Girl being out now too, people are saying this just no way for anybody to take a part that Barbara Streisand made famous and make it their own. But people said that about Joel Grey’s part in Cabaret and then Alan Cumming came and did it in a whole new way that makes you rethink everything you thought you knew. And that’s the way I feel about your covers. You remake these songs in a way that makes you feel like that’s the way they should have been done to begin with. Your cover of Prince’s Kiss is astonishing. And Prince, you think how can anybody outdo Prince’s own song? But yet you do it. How do you pick your songs to cover? Why are you laughing?
Joan Wasser:
Because that’s crazy. Thank you so much. Thank you. How do I pick the songs? I mean, I pick songs I’m infatuated with. That’s for sure. They don’t always work because I have to convince myself I’ve found a new way into the song or I’ve found some sort of new facet to show the world. And sometimes that doesn’t happen. But I love that song, Kiss. Who doesn’t? It’s so good. And I was determined to figure out some other way through it. And I love Nina Simone and she does this. So yeah. I’m just trying to honor her example of finding new ways through songs.
Debbie Millman:
Joan, I’d love before you go, if you could do another song for us. Any song at all from your catalog. Your beautiful catalog. And if you can just pick a song and tell us the backstory.
Joan Wasser:
Okay, well this is a song called Forever In a Year. And it is from the record called The Deep Field.
Debbie Millman:
2011.
Joan Wasser:
Yes. The song pretty much tells itself. Let’s see if I can tell it.
(singing)
Debbie Millman:
Thank you, Joan.
Joan Wasser:
What a way to make it through that song.
Debbie Millman:
That was perfection. You okay?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah. It’s really hard for me not to cry during that song.
Debbie Millman:
It’s hard not to cry through most of your songs in the best possible way. Here. Here, we have tissues.
Joan Wasser:
I’m all right.
Debbie Millman:
You good?
Joan Wasser:
Yeah, it’s fine.
Debbie Millman:
Joan Wasser, thank you so much for making so much stunning music that truly matters and thank you for joining me today on Design Matters. Joan, as Joan As Policewoman is about to go on tour. She’s going on a lengthy tour to Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Italy, Switzerland, the UK. And songs from The Solution Is Restless will feature prominently as well as other songs from her catalog. You can find out lots more about Joan on her website, joanaspolicewoman.com.
This is the 18th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters and I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.