Shaped by music and activism, Toshi Reagon reflects on her upbringing and remarkable career writing, playing, singing, and producing music.
Debbie Millman:
Folk, blues, gospel, rock, funk, Toshi Reagon writes it, plays it, sings it, and produces it all. Her genre spanning work includes an opera, the Parable of the Sower, based on the dystopian novel by Octavia Butler. She’s been making albums since 1990, and her commitment to social justice rings loud and clear in her songs, and in her beautiful, expressive, and powerful voice. She’s here today to talk about her life, her music, and her career. Toshi Reagon, welcome to Design Matters.
Toshi Reagon:
Ah, thank you for having me.
Debbie Millman:
Toshi, I understand that the first big rock concert you attended was when you were 13, and it was to see the band KISS. So were you a big fan of their music?
Toshi Reagon:
Oh, obviously, I really loved KISS when I was a kid, and I still soft spot for them now. But they’re a very exciting band for young folks or for anybody, but they are very committed to their sound and very committed to the theatrics of the characters they were playing. I started playing drums like really young, and so they were like a fun band, I could put on headphones and play along. And later in life, when I was hanging out with Lenny, Lenny Kravitz, he’s a huge fan of KISS as well, so we both got to go see them together. And then, because he’s really famous, I got to meet everybody. So that was a big highlight to meet them, finally.
Debbie Millman:
I have a confession to make, KISS was also my first rock concert as well, Nassau Coliseum, 1977. I was about 14 or 15. You saw them at the old Capital Centre in DC, right?
Toshi Reagon:
That’s right. In the back, I was on the wall, the highest place you could go, and then I touched the wall. I was in the last seat.
Debbie Millman:
You’re a little bit younger than me, so I think we probably sort of discovered them and fell in love with them about the same time.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Toshi your parents were active in the civil rights movement as you were growing up, which is sort of an understatement, but, nevertheless, your mother, Bernice Johnson Reagon, founded the Grammy award winning, all women, all African American ensemble, Sweet Honey in the Rock, in 1973. Your father Cordell Reagon was a leader in the civil rights movement in Georgia, and co-founder of the Freedom Singers. And you’ve said your mom’s value system of resistance was already set in motion by the time she started college, and was working as the NAACP youth secretary. When was yours set in motion, given how you were raised?
Toshi Reagon:
I was really primarily raised by my mom, but it was very beautiful and active community. We lived in this house in Atlanta, and on the top floor was Vincent Harding and Rosemarie Harding, two, I think sometimes we say, civil rights activists, and then we miss a whole bunch of what people do. And the civil rights era, which comes out of the Southern Freedom Movement are specific things that we know about, but these people are just casting such a wide net vision and leadership. And, now, I know they were very young in their lives, like early 20s, and so it’s kind of extraordinary.
Toshi Reagon:
So I was like really shaped by activism, when I was three, two, four, because all of the that were around me were, and that was what they all talked about and how they raised us. They were not going to like send us some place to go to school where we could be attacked for being black. So they were very, very specific in how they were raising their children. And we really understood that.
Debbie Millman:
You are folk music, legend Pete Seeger’s goddaughter. You were named after Pete’s wife of 70 years, Toshi Seeger. Your mother often performed with Pete, were you close with the entire family?
Toshi Reagon:
I mean, Pete and Toshi, I was close to, but I always like to say, “Pete Seeger was married to Toshi,” and I’m like, “And he’s Toshi’s husband,” and Toshi is a phenomenal, expansive, amazing, incredible woman. I don’t know if Pete would’ve been able to be folk legend Pete Seeger without her. And she really is the one that pulled together this idea of the Freedom Singers traveling across the country. It was my mom and Toshi who communicated, in order to get them around the country. And that idea that you can do anything yourself that you need to, I really get very strongly from my mom and Toshi. And from Pete, I get what songs can do, and how songs can pull people together.
Debbie Millman:
Despite declaring at four years old that you wanted some Jimi Hendrix albums, you’ve stated that your real goal in life was to be the first black woman in the men’s National Football League.
Toshi Reagon:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
What made you decide you wanted to do that?
Toshi Reagon:
I mean, I really love football. Football’s like, it’s so much fun, and it’s such a great outlet for adrenaline. Now, of course, once you start throwing on pads and really hitting each other, it’s quite a dangerous game. And I never got that far, before I had a hip accident playing sports, but I did at one point get to play with some guys that were much bigger than me, high school guys. And we would have these like big games on the field of Coolidge High School. They weren’t like with pads or anything, but they were tackle games, and they would have first downs and things like that. And this is my big moment of football is that I gained a first down in that game.
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Toshi Reagon:
And I got hit.
Debbie Millman:
That’s impressive.
Toshi Reagon:
It was very impressive. I got hit by like 16 year olds. I think I was probably 11, and I got hit by like 16-year-old guys. And I was like, “What the fuck?” It hurt really bad, but I got up. And then I was like, “Yeah, I’m okay. I’m okay.” But definitely by… I don’t know, I see some women really joining the teams now, and I think it’s great. But I I’ve been boycotting the NFL for like eight years, because they’re just a hot mess. That’s a sport that could transform the cities that they’re in.
Debbie Millman:
You mentioned a serious hip injury. You didn’t get that injury from football, you got that from softball, is that correct?
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. I got that on softball.
Debbie Millman:
So you were just a general all-around athlete.
Toshi Reagon:
I love sports. I still, to this day, love, love sports. I think that it’s… Yeah, I love it.
Debbie Millman:
It wasn’t until that hip injury that you began to reconsider your future goals, and I believe that’s when you picked up the guitar.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. It’s kind of a mush of things. In our family, you sing, so I was musical. If you go to my grandma’s in Georgia, everybody sings and people sing out church culture. So was not like you separated you’re singing from anything in your life. So I started singing when I was three years old. I never did not sing in my entire life, but I was like, “I’m going to be a football player,” but that didn’t mean I wasn’t going to do music.
Toshi Reagon:
And Rosie Lee Hooks gave me a guitar, probably, when I was about 10, so I already had a guitar. But I think when it was like, “You can’t run,” I was like, “My focus is going to be music.” And then that’s when all of the things started to come together.
Debbie Millman:
I read that you chose guitar, specifically, because your best friend, Daniel Lopez wanted to learn how to play.
Toshi Reagon:
He’s going to love this. Yes.
Debbie Millman:
And you practice together every night over the phone-
Toshi Reagon:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
… so much so that your mother bought you your own phone.
Toshi Reagon:
Yes, she did.
Debbie Millman:
Why were you practicing over the phone and not in person?
Toshi Reagon:
Well, he lived in Virginia and I lived in DC, and the school we both went to Burgundy Farm Country day School was in Virginia. So, yeah, I would ride out there, but after school we both went home, and then as soon as we got home, I’d run up to my room and then we’d be like teaching each other, how to play Neil Young songs like string by string. It was awesome. It was one of the best things I ever did in my life.
Debbie Millman:
Despite learning how to play guitar with Daniel Lopez, you hijacked your brother’s drum set-
Toshi Reagon:
I did.
Debbie Millman:
… and would repeatedly play along with the LaBelle album Nightbirds.
Toshi Reagon:
Yes, I did.
Debbie Millman:
And then I understand you moved on to conga, and then songwriting. So talk about when you first started writing songs, how you started to write songs. I find songwriting to be one of the most mysterious, magical entities that exists.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. I mean, I think, I always had songs in my head. When you’re young, you make up songs all the time. Kids are always like, “Da, da, da, da, da, da.” But I think because music was our love and communication language in my family, there was no singing that wasn’t taken seriously. My cousin [Kabanya 00:10:08], when she was two, we all banged on the piano, but all of a sudden when she was two, we were like, “Wait a minute, that makes a little bit of sense, what she’s doing.” And Kabanya is like an incredible singer and pianist. But when she was two, she was taken seriously, her voice was taken seriously. My voice was taken seriously, the second I like said any words. And I think that made like the idea that I could write songs very seamless.
Toshi Reagon:
It wasn’t like, “I have written a song.” It just was like one day I’m writing a song, and it was taken seriously. This is before we had all of these portable devices where you could like record yourself. So I rigged up two cassette machines and I would do like, multi-track recording, which sounds crazy, on these two cassette machines, and my mom would listen to it and then she would critique it, “Why does it sound bad?” And I’m like, “Because I don’t have the technology. I have to go into a regular recording studio.” And then she started taking me to the studio with her. So songwriting in itself, I don’t know that it’s so far away from anybody. And then when you do it as somebody like take your voice seriously, and it’s the same thing as anything one would do.
Debbie Millman:
Do you remember the first song you ever wrote?
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah, I wrote this song when I was first teaching myself guitar called, I love you. And it’s like the simplest thing you could play on the guitar. And the simplest melody you could play on the guitar, and you could sing. And it just was some basic lyrics about, “I’m going to hold you tight, because I love you,” or something like that. I was like 12 or 13. I got a little bit more better at it, as time went on.
Debbie Millman:
And I believe you started your first band when you were in high school, it was a cover band, right? You played Led Zeppelin-
Toshi Reagon:
Yep.
Debbie Millman:
… Neil Young, the Beatles. Did you play KISS?
Toshi Reagon:
Nobody liked KISS as much as I did, so we did not play KISS songs.
Debbie Millman:
I’m surprised, I think you guys could have at least played Beth, that’s sort of a crowd pleaser.
Toshi Reagon:
No, that wasn’t my favorite song. I like, I Stole Your Love and all of the… To this day, I try not to make people play things they don’t want to play.
Debbie Millman:
And you were the drummer, not the guitarist, at that point.
Toshi Reagon:
I played a lot of different things. So you know how it is in school is like, three or four drummers, three or four guitarist, three or four this, so sometimes I played drums and sometimes I played guitar and sometimes I just sang it. This just was whoever was around.
Debbie Millman:
I read that you also learned how to play the bass, because your bass player didn’t show up for a gig.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. We had the flakiest bass player, Les [Hazar 00:13:01] and he would just like, not show up for things. And so, yeah, that made me have to play the bass, which is one of my favorite instruments now, so I thank him for not showing up. But, yeah, and a few times on gigs, a bass player has not shown up, and I’ve been like, “Okay, I’ll play.”
Debbie Millman:
So it just comes naturally to you. Did you ever take formal lessons in any instrument or vocal lessons?
Toshi Reagon:
The instruments when I was seven, my mom tried to get me to play guitar and I hated it. I don’t know if it’s that the teacher was bad or that I just didn’t like that idea of learning. It didn’t make sense to me. So the guitar, I really learned on my own, in collaboration with Danny and other people. And June Millington is one of my musical moms and definitely, if she has a guitar protege, I’m probably her first one. And the people that I play with, I was very inspired by. And voice lessons, I definitely had to take voice lessons. My mom made me as soon as she saw me like singing in bands. She’s like, “You have to take lessons,” and it’s not so much like singing lessons, but it’s like, how to use the instrument of the voice.
Toshi Reagon:
She saw I was going to tear my voice up. And so we had, the biggest fight, me and my mom ever had, was over me taking voice lessons, which I hated. Then I did exactly what she said I was going to do, I injured my vocal chords. I couldn’t talk for six weeks, and then I learned to listen to my mom-
Debbie Millman:
Wow.
Toshi Reagon:
… when she says, “Go to voice lessons.”
Debbie Millman:
Why did you hate it so much? Was it the formality of it? The rigidity-
Toshi Reagon:
It’s not… It wasn’t… It just really clashed with my 14-year-old self. It is very formal, and singing isn’t a whole body experience. I think like a lot of us have access to singing, and we don’t ever think about like my whole body is singing. We’re just thinking about our voice and how we feel when we sing. Like so many things that we, it’s the entirety of a universe of systems in your body that create what is your voice, what it is that you do. It came so easy to me, I just couldn’t imagine at 14 that there was any way for it to leave me or that I could do something wrong.
Toshi Reagon:
Now, when I work with vocalists and their grownups, a lot of vocalists still don’t have that understanding. And so, they’ll say, “I get really tired in my throat,” or, “My shoulders hurt,” or, “My lower back hurts.” And it’s like their body trying to figure out how to make the sound that they wanted to make, but they’re not activating the systems, the physical systems. At some point, you have to learn how to use that, or you will not have your voice. Your voice will quit.
And Pete Seeger’s a great example of this. Like Pete is classic. Pete position is, his neck is stretched out, and he’s singing and he is looking up, and that lasted for a long time. And then one year he couldn’t make a sustained sound, and people will see his grandson Tao started touring with him to do the singing, because Pete could talk, but he couldn’t sustain notes. And then, miraculously, I don’t know, some few years later he started to be able to sing a little bit, again, which probably was representative of a lot of rest.
Yeah. Y’all singers out there, find somebody, not a singing teacher, a voice teacher that will actually incorporate the wholeness of your body into your singing. And don’t do like I did, unless you want like a six week silent meditation, which people are really into now.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, actually, I was going to say, I know a lot of people that pay a lot of money for that. Toshi, you’ve said you have three musical moms. Your mom is first, and you consider her the queen. And then two others, Nona Hendryx, who achieved success both as a solo artist and as part of the band LaBelle, and June Millington, a Filipino American guitarist, songwriter, producer, educator, and actress, who also co-founded the Institute of American Arts. And I was wondering if you can talk about how all three of your musical moms influenced you.
Toshi Reagon:
Wow. We might need another episode on this.
Debbie Millman:
That’s cool.
Toshi Reagon:
It’s pretty deep. I really think about my mom that we have traveled together before this lifetime, and in this lifetime, we are mom and daughter that this is part of one of our journeys. When people ask me what they should do with their kids, I know they’re asking me about music, and like how expose them to music. And I think what my mom did was like, it’s the above of grace unlimited. I know when her parents saw me, when I was a baby, I was the representation of their incredible efforts to exist.
Toshi Reagon:
These black people on both sides of my family, navigating the violent, racist institution of the United States of America on both sides of my family. Understanding the preciousness and the miraculous gift of life, and coming up through the time of our ancestors, when they had to live through generation after generation after generation of ownership of their bodies and anything their bodies created, including life. And to the unimaginable acts of watching somebody either take you away from your kids or take your kids away from you, to understand the multitude of systems that you put in place to house yourself and house your people, when people think you are criminalized, the second you come up with unique idea of being free.
For those people to get to the year 1964, and see the first generation of our family that’s not going to pick cotton, it’s such a big deal. It’s such a big thing, is I don’t even have the expansiveness of language to cover it. And every single person looked at me like I was a reason for every single thing they have ever done in their lives to get to that moment. And, my mom, I’m the first child, I’m the first grandchild on my mom’s side of the family. But my mom just took me everywhere. There was no place that I couldn’t go with her. And I think if there was a place I couldn’t go, she would maybe think she was going to the wrong place. And she just joined me to who she was. And then when my brother came, she just joined him as well.
And I think that the sound of our people, a lot of people make this line, like, when is art important? When do you need art? And what is the position of the artists? And it’s, what is the position of people? When are the people’s voices important? When do the people use their voices for this? What is the technology of sound? What is the technology of sonic holding resolution of home, when people tell you, you don’t have one?
That’s where I come from. I almost say, before I’m an artist, I’m a person who has to survive in this wicked world, and the instrument I use is my voice and song. And then, oh, there’s an entity called art, and oh, it can be commercialized. And oh, I could make a living. This is all after that. But my mom brought me into the world and set the standard for how people should look at me and receive me.
She and my family, let me know that that was important to pay attention to. You shouldn’t just blow that away. You should know, like, no, they really looked at you like you didn’t belong here, and now you get to make a decision, if you want to stay. And now you know what you need to do, if you want to stay. To be born and have people communicate that to you is a good thing.
And that’s why I got these other two amazing moms, because they kind of come from each in their own way, a similar line. June Millington is the first woman I saw play electric guitar and use effects pedals. So my mom told me that day when my hip broke and I couldn’t be a football player, and I said, “I’m going to be a musician.” My mom said, and you probably researched this already that, “Well, learn how to be a producer and stay away from drugs.”
Debbie Millman:
I was actually going to ask you that specifically.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. So I ended up being an intern at Roadwork, which was like an all women’s production and booking agency started by Amy Horowitz. So I worked on all of the concerts, and Chris Williamson was doing like a concert at Constitution Hall. It was really bananas, because that was like a big hall, 3000 people I think, and it was just filled with lesbians. It was like-
Debbie Millman:
A total fantasy.
Toshi Reagon:
… it was amazing. Yeah. It was like so many lesbians. And then June was the guitar, she had produced Chris’s record. I, basically, followed her everywhere. And then she doesn’t know why, she said that, just when she met me, she said, she saw me walk into the room, I was a kid, and she was like, “Okay, that person’s mine.” And then from that moment on June started to teach me. So the next day I went to where she was staying, and she did one of her songs, and she wrote me out a chart, and I couldn’t really read charts. But June Wilmington’s charts are very beautiful and classic, and you can understand them, and she taught at me how to play the song in a guitar.
And then after that she would send me cassettes of everything she did. I would get a cassette in the mail. And I like to say, “I’m her first student.” Now they have the Rock ‘n’ Roll girls camp and all of these things. She would send me how she made records, how she wrote songs.
And then Nona, Nona was like the first woman, other than my mom or women in Sweet Honey, that I identified, that when you looked at the back of a record, the song was written by them. And LaBelle was such a big band, and then when we got the record, I saw like songs written by Nona Hendryx. And I can’t tell you what that meant to me. It was so important. When you looked on the back of Motown records, it was so many songs that just said the corporation, the corporation, the corporation. And then every once in a while, it’d say Ashford & Simpson or Stevie Wonder.
But it was like the… And I’d be like, “Who’s the corporation? What does that mean?” In LaBelle records, you had the name, and then it would say Nona Hendryx. So I always wanted to meet Nona Hendryx, when I was a kid. She had one of my favorite voices and she wrote the best music, the most interesting, journeying music, complicated, complex, meaningful lyrics and situations. And so when I had a record deal with Electra, the best thing that came out of that deal, because a record never got released, was Nona Hendryx.
They were like, “Is there any producer you want to work with that’s already successful?” They want names. And I was like, “I want to work with Nona Hendryx.” And they got her. The first time I was in a meeting with Nona Hendryx, I levitate. And from that moment on, Nona has been like a beautiful guiding light, and also just an expert in songwriting. And she produced, one time, a vocal track for me. And just that like couple of hours of working with her really, really influenced how I produce myself and produce my vocals.
So the three of them, it’s a pretty heavy team. And I feel really grateful. And out of all of them, there’s one thing, when my mom told me to be a producer, her idea was that, I had to be able to present myself, because I didn’t have time to wait for people to decide. You can do it. And Nona, because she had had a lot of experience in the business, Nona was the person who was like, “These people are not your friends,” and to take every opportunity like its ingredients, but know what it is that you want to make. And then pick the ingredients you need and leave the rest. And June was the person who was like, “There is a system to recording sound and recording sound very well, take your time and learn the systems that please you and make you happy.” And all of those significant, really significant systems help to create, along with my own intentions, what I do.
Debbie Millman:
In addition to your mom saying that you needed to stay away from drugs and learn to be a producer, she also said, as you were becoming a musician and started to play with her, that she was going to treat you like everyone else. And you had to show up, and if you sucked, she didn’t want to work with you. Were you ever worried you couldn’t-
Toshi Reagon:
Well, she never actually said that, but she just did it. There would never be like, she won’t work with me, that would never happen. But when you’re little and you go to work with your parents, you get to see them in action. And so I would go to work with my mom and I would see her doing the DC Black Repertory company song workshops, and then creating things. I grew up in that atmosphere. So once I started doing it, I was shocked, but she treated me exactly the same. And she had the same expectations. And she doesn’t give you a lot of preparation. She doesn’t explain anything to you, she’s just like… As I got older and she started having me work with her, which like kind of, started when I was 16 and she saw I started having talent in the studio, and I started producing things.
The score for Africans in America, that’s mostly like a lot, the two of us, she did not tell me what we were doing. She didn’t say, “Hey, you know what? We’re going to work on a score. We’re going to do this, and we’re doing that. And it’s four different films, with four different directors, and we’re doing the da, da, da.” I just showed up one day in the studio, and she put a microphone across from her. And then she did like this, which meant, sing what I sing. And then I did not know the song. I did not know the words. I did not know anything. And I just started singing what I would hear in her mouth. And as soon as I got it, she switched lines. And that’s how we did the vocals for almost that entire project. If you go listen to Africans in America, you’d be very impressed with us.
But with me, because she never said, “Hey, this is what I want you to do.” She was like, “Ah, I think it’d be a great idea, if you did Still Away on electric guitar. Here, I’ll sing the line, I think.” And then I would play it on a guitar, and, “Oh, what if you harmonized it?” And she did it. So more comes out of that congregational singing that I think she grew up with, which is like, nobody ever taught you a song. You learned the song from being a part of the singing, and that’s how she did me. And that’s how she does everybody.
Even with the Freedom Singers, after my father died, they had a show and they asked me to do my dad’s parts. Nobody taught me what his parts were. I was just sitting there like, “Isn’t somebody going to tell me?” And they just started singing, and I was just like, ah, ah, ah, trying to figure it out. And when I messed up, they didn’t go back over the song and correct me, they went on to the next song.
Debbie Millman:
Has this influenced the way you manage your own sets. I understand that when you’re performing, you don’t ever have a set list. So you just write down 30 to 40 songs you’re feeling good about and then see what the energy is like. So-
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
… it seems like that might have influenced the way you perform now.
Toshi Reagon:
It totally did it. It came from my dad, with the Freedom Singers never programming a set. Then my mother, with Sweet Honey, never programming a set. And then me, with Big Lovely, never programming set. And honestly COVID has forced me to program the sets, because we don’t rehearse, really, or we have very little rehearsal to limit the amount of time that we were together, if we were doing something. And a few of the things we did on video, we had no rehearsal, so I had to say, “Okay, we’re going to do these songs,” so people could practice on their own. So I have to do it. I look forward to being able to get back to that though.
Debbie Millman:
In 1983, after saving up for studio time, your mother booked you in a studio to record a cassette of songs called demonstrations. And I have tried to find that everywhere, I have not been able to find it. How would you describe that music today?
Toshi Reagon:
Oh, I’ll send you one, it’s on cassette. I mean, it’s a young Toshi, first time being in a studio. She didn’t come with me. She was like, “Here you go,” and she dropped me off. Thank God for June Millington, because I knew a little bit about what I was supposed to do, because… But it’s a young me. It’s some of my first songs, and I think it’s pretty cool. It’s the only recording of my friend Curtis McShane who I went to high school with. He’s a really good guitar player, and he passed away very young. That’s how I remember, how important it is to record, and how important it is to like put down your ideas, and leave them behind for other people to find and hold onto, eventually.
Toshi Reagon:
So it got made into like hundreds of cassettes and then the company that was distributing them closed down. They sent back like the last 50 of them, so I should transfer them and put that out.
Debbie Millman:
Yes you should.
Toshi Reagon:
It’s [crosstalk 00:32:50].
Debbie Millman:
You should. Your first official album was titled Justice, which was published by Flying Fish Records in 1990. How did you first get that record deal?
Toshi Reagon:
I mean, it’s not as hard… I mean, I think I’m sure I got it because Flying Fish put out Sweet Honey records, and they didn’t have to pay for it, I paid for it. So I think that’s how it happened. And now I think another label has it, and I’m like, “Give me back my record, that I paid for a long time ago.” But I love Justice. Justice is one of my favorite songs, and by then I was like covering the Police song, Walking in Your Footsteps. I like a lot of the music on that record, and I’m glad that it’s still accessible. And it’s also amount of time I went on tour with Lenny, his first world tour.
Debbie Millman:
Well, how did you first meet? Yeah, can’t just drop that, when I went on tour with Lenny. Yeah. You and Lenny are very close, but you were a fan of The Cosby Show growing up. And had a premonition that you and Lisa Bonet, and then by extension and her, then husband Lenny Kravitz, would end up being friends, and that premonition ended up coming true. How did you first meet them?
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. And I want to be really clear, because people hear this story and I’m so surprised, I must have said it somewhere, but, yeah. So I did, I was looking at The Cosby Show like everybody, and it hit me, I was looking at it, and I was like, “We’re going to be best friends. It’s going to be like my sister,” and everybody laughed at me. Because at that time everybody wanted to be best friends, and everybody wanted Lisa to be their best friends. But-
Debbie Millman:
Don’t they still? Don’t they still?
Toshi Reagon:
They still do. Lilakoi Moon is one of the best people who ever hit the Earth, so I think everybody would love to be friends with her. But it happened because they were making a big video in Central Park for Lenny’s first record, Let Love Rule, and my friend was friends with the stylist for the video. Everybody was like starting out at everything. So Arianne Phillips and my friend and Lisa Taggar, and they were like, “You want to watch it?” Because making videos was a big deal back in the day. And so we were just watching, and then at some point Lilakoi was like, “Can you go over and dance in the video, because I like your hat,” or something like that. And so I was like, “Okay,” and then was just like being an extra in a video. And then later they invited me to come to their house, at some point, and they were serious.
That was the beginning. And then Lenny said that thing, like, a lot of people say to you in your life, like, “When I go on tour, I’ll call you up and you can come open some shows.” And he really did. I got to open like five shows in Calgary and Portland and these different places. And then he was like, “I don’t want anybody else to open for me, because the vibe is really cool. So you open the rest of these shows.” And I don’t even know if my Justice record was out, but I didn’t have… People paid big money to open shows at that point, so another band had already paid. And so he would put me on in between that band and the main act. And I got to open for him all over Europe and the United States. I have a lot of great stories from that time. It was really a magical time.
Debbie Millman:
I’m sure it was. What was that experience like, not just opening for him, but just the whole tour experience and being part of that music scene at that time?
Toshi Reagon:
Well, I mean, first of all, it was like being on a big learning curve, because I hadn’t played a lot of big places, and all of a sudden I was playing in front of thousands of people. But the vibe was really good. I mean, he was a really cool person to open for. I think the best story I could tell you is, I think it was the third show I opened, we were in Portland. And at this point, people had started to catch on that I was going to open, and so the crowd was really into it.
And then I’m performing, and I see this man, who’s one of the crew members for the venue, walking towards the stage. And he’s got this package, and I’m like, “What’s going on?” And then he hands it to me, and it’s a necklace. And he’s like, “Lenny saw you play, and he wants you to have this.” And I was like, “What?” And it was this beautiful silver necklace, and it had these really beautiful stones in it. And he had just seen me playing and liked what I was doing, and he gave me this necklace. And I thought, “Wow, that’s pretty cool.”
Debbie Millman:
That is very cool. It sounds like such an amazing experience. And to be recognized like that by someone like Lenny Kravitz must have been a really special moment in your career.
Toshi Reagon:
It was. It was definitely a special moment. And it was also, I think, a moment where I felt like, “Okay, this is real. I’m doing something that people are noticing and appreciating.” So it was a great validation.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. So your musical journey has covered various genres. You’ve played rock, folk, blues, and you’ve been described as a genre-defying artist. How do you approach this diversity in your music, and what draws you to explore different genres?
Toshi Reagon:
I just think it’s natural for me. I grew up in a household where there was so much different music. My mom was into rock music, my dad was into folk, blues, and gospel. I went to a school that had a lot of different kinds of music. And then, growing up in D.C., I was exposed to punk and go-go and all these different things. So for me, it’s not even a conscious choice. I just love all kinds of music, and I’ve been fortunate enough to have been around and exposed to so many different genres.
I just follow what feels good. If a song feels good to me, I’ll play it. I don’t care what genre it is. And I think that’s the beauty of music. It doesn’t have to be constrained by genres. It’s really about how it makes you feel, and that’s what I go for. I’m not thinking, “Oh, this is a rock song, or this is a folk song.” I’m just thinking, “Does it feel good? Does it move me?” And that’s what guides me.
Debbie Millman:
I love that approach. It’s really about the emotion and the feeling that the music brings. And I think that resonates with people, too. When they listen to your music, they can feel that authenticity and that emotional connection.
Toshi Reagon:
Yeah. I think that’s what people connect with in music. It’s not necessarily the genre. It’s the emotion, it’s the feeling, it’s the authenticity. And I always try to bring that to my music, regardless of what style it might be. I think that’s what resonates with people.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. Now, looking at your activism, you’ve been involved in various social and political causes. Your music often reflects these concerns, and you’ve been a part of events and movements for social justice. How do you see the relationship between art and activism, and how does that play out in your work?
Toshi Reagon:
Well, I think art has always been connected to activism. If you look at the history of music, especially in the United States, music has always been a part of movements for justice, for freedom, for equality. It’s always been a way for people to express their feelings, their resistance, their joy, their sorrow. So for me, the connection is natural. I don’t see them as separate things.
Art has the power to move people, to inspire people, to make people think. And when you’re talking about issues of justice, when you’re talking about fighting for equality, fighting against oppression, art becomes a really powerful tool. It’s a way to communicate messages, to bring people together, to give voice to things that might not be heard otherwise. So, for me, the connection is very natural.
In my own work, I’ve always tried to bring a social justice lens to what I do. Whether it’s through my lyrics, my performances, or the causes I support, it’s about using the platform that I have to contribute to positive change. I think it’s important for artists to be engaged with the world around them and to use their voices for good.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. And I think, historically, we’ve seen how art and music, in particular, have played such a crucial role in various movements for justice and social change. It has that ability to bring people together, to create a sense of solidarity, and to communicate messages in a way that can be very powerful and impactful.
Toshi Reagon:
Absolutely. I think, for a lot of people, music is an entry point into social and political awareness. It’s a way to get people engaged, to make them feel connected to a cause or a movement. Music has the power to create a sense of community and to inspire people to take action. So, it’s always been a part of social justice movements, and I think it will continue to be.
Debbie Millman:
Definitely. Now, as we look at the current state of the world, there are still many ongoing challenges, and people are actively engaged in various movements for justice. How do you see the role of art and artists in addressing the current challenges and contributing to positive change?
Toshi Reagon:
I think artists have a crucial role to play in addressing the challenges we face today. We’re living in a time where there’s so much happening, whether it’s issues of racial justice, climate change, economic inequality, or other pressing concerns. Artists have the ability to shine a light on these issues, to bring attention to them, and to inspire people to take action.
Artists can use their platforms to amplify voices that might not be heard otherwise. We have the power to create work that challenges the status quo, that questions the way things are, and that envisions a better future. I think art has the ability to spark conversations, to provoke thought, and to engage people emotionally.
In times of social and political turmoil, art becomes a form
of resistance. It’s a way for people to express their dissent, their anger, their hope, and their vision for a more just world. So, I see artists as cultural workers, as storytellers, as truth-tellers, and as activists. We have a responsibility to use our voices for positive change and to contribute to building a more equitable and just society.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. And I think what you mentioned about storytelling is so important. Art has that ability to tell stories in a way that can really connect with people on a deep level. It humanizes the issues, and it makes people feel and understand in a way that maybe other forms of communication might not be able to do.
Toshi Reagon:
Exactly. I think storytelling is a powerful tool for empathy and understanding. When you hear a story, when you hear a song, it can create a connection that goes beyond statistics or abstract concepts. It brings the human experience to the forefront. And I think that’s what art does so well—it speaks to our shared humanity, our shared struggles, and our shared aspirations.
Debbie Millman:
Definitely. Now, shifting gears a bit, you’ve been involved in a wide range of projects throughout your career. Is there a particular project or collaboration that stands out to you as especially meaningful or memorable?
Toshi Reagon:
Wow, that’s a tough question. I’ve been fortunate to work on so many amazing projects and collaborations. One that stands out to me is the collaboration with Bernice Johnson Reagon and Amina Claudine Myers on the project “The Temptation of St. Anthony.” That was a really special and unique project.
Bernice Johnson Reagon is my mother, and Amina Claudine Myers is a fantastic pianist and composer. The three of us came together to create this multimedia performance that was based on the life of St. Anthony. It involved music, spoken word, visuals, and it was a really immersive experience. We performed it at the Brooklyn Academy of Music (BAM), and it was just a powerful and memorable collaboration.
Another project that stands out is the work I did with the dance company Urban Bush Women. I composed the music for their piece “Walking with Pearl…Southern Diaries,” which was a tribute to Pearl Primus, a pioneering dancer and choreographer. It was an incredible experience to create music that was integrated into the dance piece, and it was a beautiful homage to Pearl Primus.
There are so many other collaborations that have been meaningful to me, whether it’s working with my band Big Lovely, collaborating with other musicians, or being part of events like the Women’s March. Each project has its own significance, and I feel grateful for the opportunities to collaborate with talented and inspiring people.
Debbie Millman:
It sounds like you’ve had such a rich and diverse range of experiences in your collaborations. And I can imagine each one brings its own unique set of challenges and joys, but it’s wonderful to hear about the different ways you’ve been able to express yourself through these collaborations.
Toshi Reagon:
Absolutely. Each collaboration has its own energy, its own dynamics, and its own creative process. It’s always a learning experience, and it pushes me to grow as an artist. I love the diversity of collaborations, and it’s something that keeps my work exciting and fresh.
Debbie Millman:
Definitely. Now, as we look to the future, what are some of the projects or ideas that you’re currently excited about or looking forward to exploring?
Toshi Reagon:
Well, I’m always working on new music. I have some projects in the works, including an album that I’m really excited about. I’m also looking forward to more live performances, connecting with audiences, and sharing music in person.
I’m passionate about continuing my activism and using my platform to address social and political issues. Whether it’s through music, conversations, or collaborations, I want to contribute to positive change and inspire others to do the same.
I’m also exploring new ways of storytelling and expression. I’ve been thinking about how to incorporate different mediums and technology into my work. The possibilities are endless, and I’m excited to see where the creative journey takes me.
Debbie Millman:
That sounds fantastic. It’s always exciting to hear about artists exploring new avenues and pushing the boundaries of their creativity. I’m sure whatever you have in store will be impactful and inspiring.
Toshi Reagon:
Thank you. I believe in the power of art to make a difference, and I’m committed to using my voice and my music to contribute to positive change. I appreciate the opportunity to share my journey and thoughts with you.
Debbie Millman:
Thank you so much, Toshi. It’s been a pleasure to have this conversation with you, and I’m grateful for the insights and wisdom you’ve shared. Wishing you continued success in all your endeavors.
Toshi Reagon:
Thank you, Debbie. It’s been a pleasure, and I appreciate the work you do in amplifying voices and engaging in meaningful conversations. Let’s continue to uplift each other and create positive change.
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely. Take care, Toshi.
[End of transcript.]