The daughter of folk-music royalty, singer-songwriter Lucy Wainwright Roche joins to talk about her life, family, and multi-decade career in the music industry.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
My first show was so bad. I was so bad. I was super uncomfortable on stage, not particularly capable. And the second show was at The Living Room. That one was much better because I realized that the best strategy was just to be myself.
Announcer:
This is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. For 15 years, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they’re thinking about and working on. On this episode, a conversation with Lucy Wainwright Roche about her musical family, her career as a singer-songwriter, and her musical tastes.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I really like sad music a lot. Most of the songs I love are really sad.
Announcer:
Here’s Debbie.
Debbie Millman:
Despite the fact that Lucy Wainwright Roche comes from music royalty, her father is Grammy Award-winning folk artist, Loudon Wainwright III, her mother was one third of the legendary folk trio, The Roches, and her half siblings are Rufus and Martha Wainwright, she started her career as an elementary school teacher. Eventually, she began singing backup in her brother’s band. And by 2010, she had recorded and released her own CD. When you hear her beguiling voice and listen to her songs, you might conclude she had no choice in the matter.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
(singing)
Debbie Millman:
Lucy Wainwright Roche is here in the studio today to talk about her life, her career, her family, and her music. And maybe she’ll sing a song for us. Lucy Wainwright Roche, welcome to Design Matters.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Thanks for having me.
Debbie Millman:
Lucy, I understand that you’re a rabid Eminem fan and even know every word to “Cleanin’ Out My Closet.” Is that true?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
That is true. No one has ever heard me sing it except for my mother.
Debbie Millman:
Well, would you consider singing it now?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I don’t think I can. I think that would take some real preparation. And maybe I might have to be overly exhausted to do it.
Debbie Millman:
Darn, too bad you’re not tired today. When did you first discover Eminem, and what was the allure?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I just heard him on the radio, that song, “Mockingbird,” one of the songs about his kid. And many of his songs are so heartbreaking and incredibly fit together. It’s just jaw-dropping to me. And he actually reminds me of my dad, writing wise, a little bit too. Which my dad, I don’t think, would be into.
Debbie Millman:
I could see that.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
When he talks about his family and his kids, it reminds me of my dad.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, there’s a certain candidness to both of their writing that I can see. I wouldn’t have ordinarily thought that. It would never have occurred to me. But I think you’re right.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
When he talks about his family and his kids, it reminds me of my dad.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, there’s a certain candidness to both of their writing that I can see. I wouldn’t have ordinarily thought that. It would never have occurred to me. But I think you’re right. Lucy, you were born and raised in Greenwich Village, New York City. Your parents split up when you were two. And I’ve read that you lived with your mom, Suzzy Roche, in a tiny one bedroom apartment, where you had the bedroom and she had the living room. Your mom has said that while it was often financially stressful, you never had the sense you were poor. Have you and your mom always been close?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yes. My mom and I are really enmeshed, you might say. And we talk most every day and text a lot. And we work together too, so we sometimes tour together. And we shared a hotel room when I was a kid and we share a hotel room still.
Debbie Millman:
I can’t even imagine what it must’ve been like to grow up with Suzzy Roche as your mother. I’ve been a fan of their music, a rabid fan, I might say, and I could probably sing many, many songs on the spot. Not that I’m going to, but I’m just letting you know.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, that I could do too. We could do that together.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, let’s sing Hammond Song together.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Okay.
Debbie Millman:
But I’ve been a fan of their music since 1979. What is your favorite song?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I would say one of my all time favorite Roches songs is One Season. I love that song so much. It holds up. With every passing year, I relate to it more and more, which I’m not sure is a great sign about me in general. But the song is just, it’s so good.
Debbie Millman:
Well, their music is timeless. I think every single one of their albums still hold up.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, I think so too.
Debbie Millman:
How much time do you spend with your dad at this point in your life?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
We also work together. I open for him sometimes, and then sometimes me and my mom and my dad do shows altogether. So it goes and fits and starts with the whole family. So maybe I’ll see him a lot over a space of a couple of months where we’re working, and then not that often. But he’s in New York and so am I, but we’re both on the road. So part of the thing about everybody is just that we’re all… You have to catch each other in the same city at the same time, which is a little hard. But my dad is very good at keeping in touch, so he likes to meet for dinner and he calls. If I don’t see him, we talk on the phone.
Debbie Millman:
I don’t want to spend that much time talking about your family because I want to talk about you and your music and your life. But I thought it would be fun to ask you for one sentence descriptions of your immediate musical family. And we’ll start with Anna and Kate McGarrigle, each individual?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, yesterday was, or I think the day before yesterday, was Kate McGarrigle’s birthday. She has passed away now, 10 years ago. This is more than a sentence. Okay, a sentence. I didn’t know her well, but if we’d had the chance to get to know each other, I think we would’ve liked each other.
Debbie Millman:
And what about Anna?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Anna, I don’t see her often, but when I do, she’s mysterious and lovely.
Debbie Millman:
Maggie Roche, the late great, brilliant Maggie Roche?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Oh man. One of the most brilliant and loyal people that you could ever know. Also, really loved cheese.
Debbie Millman:
Terre Roche?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
She is absolutely fascinating to talk to on any topic, absolutely any topic. Yes, and also just one of my all time favorite people.
Debbie Millman:
Loudon Wainwright III?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s funny, the thing that comes into my head is that I think he’s a great dad, which I don’t think is something that he’s known for. I don’t think people think that about him. But I would say he’s been a great dad to me. Sometimes that looks different than what you think it might.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, absolutely. Martha Wainwright?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
When her light shines upon you, it’s the best feeling that there is.
Debbie Millman:
Rufus Wainwright?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
We are very different in our way that we are in the world. But he has this deep, sweet, sentimental thing about him that just keeps everybody very connected in the family.
Debbie Millman:
And then, finally, your mom, Suzzy Roche?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
She almost always is exactly spot on with whatever she says or does. There’s so many things to say about all of them, but yeah.
Debbie Millman:
I do have to say, and I ordinarily don’t brag on the show, but I have the noted distinction of having seen every single person that I just mentioned in concert.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Really?
Debbie Millman:
Absolutely.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
That’s so cool. It’s like a collection of cereal box toys and you have them all.
Debbie Millman:
But I have never seen you perform all together, other than The Roches. It’s everybody has been solo.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. Well, we have done that. We went on a cruise altogether and performed on the cruise altogether. That was intense.
Debbie Millman:
And didn’t you also do that when you were in Alaska? Didn’t you all travel together, and then take the audience on buses and trains with you?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
We did, in Alaska, yes, we did.
Debbie Millman:
How did that work? Did you just pick people up along the way?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s this thing called Roots on the Rails. These lovely people run these things where musicians come in, and the audience come, and it’s an all expense paid trip. And, oftentimes, they’ll be on trains for a lot of the time, and even sleeper trains. One of the ones that I did, we slept on the train. The one in Alaska, we didn’t sleep on the train, and it involved some buses as well, and some boats. So the audience came with us. There were maybe 45 audience members, and then me, and my mom, and my dad, and my brother, and my Aunt Sloan. Martha couldn’t come because her son was starting kindergarten.
Debbie Millman:
And was your grandmother selling CDs?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
She wasn’t with us on that, but she used to sell the CDs, when I was a kid, with The Roches. But it was fun. We saw whales. I basically was like, if I see a whale, it was worth it. And I did, I saw a whale.
Debbie Millman:
How old were you at that time?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It was just a couple of years ago.
Debbie Millman:
Oh. So I read that when you were four or five years old, that was when you first graced a stage. It was at the great Bottom Line nightclub in New York City, where Rufus and Martha Wainwright were performing. Talk about what happened?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
They got me up on stage. I think it might’ve been a Christmas show or something, a Roches Christmas show maybe. And I got up, and I was supposed to sing, and I just burst into tears. And my dad had to come and get me off the stage. I remember that he came up to the edge of the stage and lifted me off the stage. And my mom thinks that probably the whole audience thought that it was child abuse because they were like, “Get up on the stage.” But I think I thought I wanted to do it, and then I got out there and I was like, “Oh geez.”
Debbie Millman:
And were you just shy? Were you afraid?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I think I was just shy. I was very shy as a kid. I did not… Not with the people closest to me but, in school, I didn’t talk and stuff really at all until about second grade. I had a teacher who got me to talk. And then, now, I talk incessantly.
Debbie Millman:
I understand you first tried to play the guitar when you were about seven. Were you trying to teach yourself? Who was teaching you?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
My mom and my Aunt Terre. My Aunt Terre was going to teach me. And they got a left-handed guitar because I’m left-handed. And I think she tried to teach me “Old McDonald” on the guitar, and I just wasn’t feeling it. And we all gave up. And then it wasn’t until I was in high school that I started to play the guitar. And I play the guitar right-handed. I don’t know if that was part of it. Maybe I’m not that left-handed or something. But, also, seven is young for the guitar because it hurts your fingers.
Debbie Millman:
I’m left-handed also, and I can play five chords on a guitar, but I play with a right-handed guitar as well. And I’ve tried to switch, thinking that I’d be able to play better that way, but I can’t.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, me too, same. And, also, by the way, five chords is all you need.
Debbie Millman:
Neil Young did it in three.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, you’re ready.
Debbie Millman:
I don’t have the gene. It’s my biggest regret in my life that I don’t have that gene.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Really?
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. And one of the things that I really wanted to ask you, and I ask every musician that comes on the show this question, how do you write a song?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I often feel in a panic like I’ll never write a song again. So I’m a little bit in that phase right now. And I also often have a blackout about what happens when I write. But that aside, I usually sit with the guitar. And I’ll either get something on the guitar that I like or some kind of melody that goes with it. And, sometimes, I’ll get stand-in words that I just put in to get the shape of the melody, and then I’ll replace them later. A thing that happens to me a lot is I’ll get a verse and a chorus. And then I’ll be like, “Well, I said that.” And then I’ll be like, “Oh geez, I have to finish this somehow.” And it’s hard to get past that initial idea for me. But, oftentimes, you go into a zone and I’m not even sure what happens. But, man, I am so grateful every time it happens. And it’s especially great when you don’t turn on the song that you just wrote. That’s a thing that happens a lot.
Debbie Millman:
When you hate it?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, as soon as you do it. My mom says that it’s like a cat who coughs up a hairball, and then jumps back and looks at it like, “Who did that?” And I think that’s a pretty good description. It’s hard to not turn on your work, I think, either partway through or afterwards. After I’ve made a record, I usually do not want to hear it ever again. It’s that same feeling of somehow it just presses your buttons in a way that other people’s stuff doesn’t.
Debbie Millman:
Do you ever, once a song is finished, ever go back and rewrite lyrics, or change the chorus, or do anything to augment it in some way?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I haven’t ever done that. There’s a song on my new record that I really like still, miraculously. But there is a lyric in it that I wish I had changed. And I haven’t changed it yet, but I would say I feel regret about it.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:15:04]
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
… say I feel regret about it. So I’ve thought, well, maybe you could change it. Just because it’s not the official recording, I could change it in shows. So I’m thinking about changing it because every time I get to that part I’m like, “Ugh, I wish I hadn’t written that.”
Debbie Millman:
Well, Joni Mitchell and Stevie Nicks have changed lyrics. I’ve heard Stevie Nicks changed the lyrics to “Landslide,” which is sort of shocking. And then Joni Mitchell has changed lyrics to “Hejira” with whoever is playing saxophone with her.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
She’ll say, “Michael Brecker,” or whoever might be playing. She started it, I think, with Michael Brecker.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. I was listening to a recording of Joan Baez doing “Diamonds and Rust” recently, and I was trying to play for someone this thing that I’d heard her do in a show. And then I discovered that it wasn’t in the original, that she had changed something, and she was doing it in performances but not-
Debbie Millman:
What are the lyrics that she changed?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
The lyrics that she changed are, “If you’re offering diamonds and rust-“
Debbie Millman:
I’ve already paid.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
“I’ve already paid,” is the original one. But when I saw her do it more recently, she said, “If you’re offering diamonds and rust, I’ll take the diamonds,” which I thought was really good.
Debbie Millman:
Very, very good.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
So that’s a change I could totally get behind.
Debbie Millman:
Well, one of the things that I heard Joni Mitchell say in one of her live recordings was that when you’re standing in front of an audience and they ask you to play a song, she thought it was interesting that nobody ever asks a painter to repaint a painting, but yet we’re always asking performers to redo these songs that are such a part of our lives.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
And she jokes nobody ever asked Van Gogh to paint a sunflower again.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
That’s true. That’s true.
Debbie Millman:
So I know your family also tried to get you to take piano lessons and you weren’t interested either, but there’s a lot of piano on your records, and I’ve seen you play piano. So when did that take hold?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. I don’t really play the piano enough to play anything. I wish that I had stuck with lessons. I know. How many times do you hear? I remember as a child, all the adults saying that they wish they had stayed with piano lessons, and I now am an adult who wishes that. I quit because I thought that my teacher didn’t smell good.
Debbie Millman:
That’s a good reason. That’s a really good reason.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I thought he smelled bad.
Debbie Millman:
I stopped physical therapy on my thumb because of that, and I really regret it. Yes.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I didn’t just think he didn’t smell good, I thought that he smelled bad. And I refused to keep doing it. And that wasn’t the best decision I ever made. I wish I had, because I love the piano. And on my last record, my most recent record, there’s a lot of piano. And mostly the producer, my friend Jordan Hamlin, she played most of it. And I adore the piano on recordings, so I wish that I had stuck with it more. And I’ve thought about taking lessons now as an adult, and it’s on a list of things I think of doing and don’t. But maybe I will someday.
Debbie Millman:
You wrote your first songs in high school, but you then gave up music and stated that the last thing you wanted to do was get up on stage and perform. Was that because of your shyness or because of feeling your family vibe?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, I think in high school I did write my first songs. My first song that I wrote was about babysitting. It was about this kid that I babysat for all through high school, and then he and his family moved away and I went to college. And it was about the heartbreak of that. But in high school I got really interested in teaching, and I volunteered a lot in the lower school classrooms at my high school. And I was moving in that direction. And I think I’d been living in the soup of the music thing for so long that I walked towards college, kind of dropping all of that behind me.
And when I was in college, I did a lot of booking. And my brother came to play and other people I was fans of came to play, and other family members came to play at college, and I booked them but I wasn’t really interested in performing. And then I think it kind of… towards the end of college I started to notice the absence of that.
Debbie Millman:
You attended Oberlin College in Ohio and graduated with a degree in creative writing and then went on to get a master’s degree in education from the Bank Street College of Education in Manhattan. What made you decide you wanted to become a teacher?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I always loved working with kids. I really just always wanted to do that. And to this day I’m torn about not doing it.
Debbie Millman:
There was this wistful look in your eyes as you said this.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
I have read that you think there are some similarities in terms of engagement with an audience and with students but now, especially being on the road as much as you are on your own, it must be hard to not have that collective energy around.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, definitely. It’s one of the amazing things about being a teacher, is just the day in and day out-ness of it and the sheer number of hours that you spend with these people. And even though you’re not with their parents, it’s a very intimate thing, dealing with people’s families and children and struggles in school. And you’re a really big, present part of peoples’ everyday lives. And now I’m not like that at all. I’m literally passing through town, and that is what my life is. So it’s really different in that way.
Debbie Millman:
You taught both in Durham, North Carolina and New York City. How different were those experiences?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, in Durham I didn’t have my degree yet and I was teaching mostly preschoolers, so they were really
little. And three year olds, most of them are three, I feel like three year olds are really interesting because they sort of get what’s going on and then they also have this total belief that anything could be happening. They’ve been being told all these weird things like, “You grow inside of another human being.” In some cases, “Santa Claus comes down the chimney.” All these things. They’re like, “Oh, okay. Sure.” They’re just-
Debbie Millman:
They believe everything.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. And they’ve got it kind of figured out, but then it’s also kind of confusing. So that was really fun. Then in New York I taught second grade and then third grade, which is a whole other thing. I love second and third grade. I think it’s a very industrious age. People want to be doing stuff and making books and creating their own thing. And one of the things I loved the most about that time period was I got really into telling stories with them.
We set out trying to write stories, but some kids are really limited by the physical demands of actually writing. So we started doing storytelling instead, where they would tell stories from their own lives in front of the class. And that was a hoot and so great. And also taking away the writing, the actual physical writing of it, meant that they could get the story structure thing sorted out without that, in case that was a stumbling block for them. So I loved that. I miss that.
Debbie Millman:
Were you bringing music into the classroom as well?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Not really. I was pretty shy. I was really shy as a teacher. I think I would be a better teacher now because I think, after all these years of doing shows, I’m less shy. The only songs I taught them were the songs that I was taught in elementary school. So I taught them the “Fifty Nifty United States” song, where you list all the states in alphabetical-
Debbie Millman:
Alabama.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah.
Together:
Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
And I remember on the first day, when my teacher taught us that, I just thought, “I’ll never be able to learn that.” And then you do. And I remember on the first day in the second grade class, me singing it for them and them being like, “Well, we can’t do that.” But they all know it.
Debbie Millman:
And they probably still do.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
They probably still do. And there was a song about parallelograms that I learned in elementary school that I taught them. Those were the only songs that I taught them.
Debbie Millman:
What made you decide to give up teaching and join what the Wainwright family calls the family business?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
In 2005 my brother, who you might think isn’t paying attention to anyone else, that’s not true, though, about him. He kind of has a covert eye on everybody in a way you might not expect. And he was like, “I think you should come out on the road with me this summer.” And I did. I went on his tour bus and I sang back up with him. I never spoke a word on stage. I was painfully shy during all of that, but it was really fun. Touring on a tour bus is really fun, and living in his life for a minute is really fun.
So when I went back to teaching after that summer, it had kind of gotten under my skin a little bit. Like, “But I really like that world and I miss that world.” And I think I, after another year of teaching, decided that if I was going to give it a shot, I better just do it. And thinking, well, maybe I’ll come back to teaching. And so then after that next year I left.
Debbie Millman:
There are some wonderful versions of you and your brother singing “Hallelujah” on YouTube, which are just gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, that’s we sang. That’s the first one that we ever did together. Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Your first gig, your first solo gig was opening for your father in 2005 at the Rockwood Music Hall in New York. What was that like?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It was really bad. My first show was so bad. I was so bad. I was super uncomfortable on stage, not particularly capable, and not doing myself any favors. And the second show was at the Living Room, which also is closed, I think. And that one was much better because in that time I realized that the best strategy was just to be myself.
Debbie Millman:
That’s a very fast learning curve.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, I think it was such a debacle trying to-
Debbie Millman:
Did you cry on stage?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
No, no, no. Not that time.
Debbie Millman:
Your dad didn’t have to come get you?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. But I was crying on the inside, and I was behaving like a weirdo. I think I had watched so many performances that I think maybe I thought something else was happening, but really people are best when they’re channeling their real self. And once I figured that out, it got a lot better. That’s not to say that the Living Room, the second show, was fantastic, but it was less… it felt better.
Debbie Millman:
When did you start to feel comfortable, fully comfortable and fully yourself on stage?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Probably within the first year of doing shows. There’s nothing like just doing 30 shows in a row to get your act together. Literally.
Debbie Millman:
Literally.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. And nothing else can do that except for doing the shows.
Debbie Millman:
You had to really want to do it, though, if that first experience was, as you put it, terrifying and also terrible.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. I think I wanted to live the shape of the lives of the people who I grew up around. I don’t know if that was the best decision, but that’s what I wanted.
Debbie Millman:
Why?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, I knew full well going into this that this was, in most cases, not lucrative and, in most cases, not super stable. I knew all that. I have no excuse for… I didn’t go into it blind at all, but I definitely have come up against the reality of that, and feeling like, wow, what was I thinking? At the same time, my whole life is built around this now, and amazing things… I’ve gotten to see amazing things that I never would’ve seen. But at the same time, I think one thing about it is, when I started out, all of my peers were
starting out and they were doing whatever job. Usually not the job they really wanted, but maybe working towards the job they really wanted.
And I left teaching and went out to do this. And everybody was sort of like, “Wow, that’s cool.” And then 10 years later, everybody’s life is really developed into a much more stable… they’ve ended up in a certain spot, and I’m still doing the same thing, and it’s a lot less cool-looking.
Debbie Millman:
But you’re making music.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
That’s true.
Debbie Millman:
You’re living a completely creative life.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s true.
Debbie Millman:
Your first album was the eponymously titled Lucy and was released in 2010. And I understand you and your mom were touring at that point to raise money to make the album. Did you self-produce the entire thing?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
My stepdad, Stewart Lerman, he produced that first record. And my first couple recordings, I made two EPs and then that record. And those recordings were made really in the seat of the family. So Stewart produced them. I worked with him a lot one-on-one. The Roches sang on that first record. I think my dad also sang on that first record. So it was very much totally insulated in the world of the family, which, the two records after that have been really different in that way.
Debbie Millman:
Would you do a song from that album for us now?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Sure. Sure.
Debbie Millman:
And if you can also tell us a little bit about the song you’re going to sing. Your songs are stories.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Okay. This song is called “Open Season.” I wrote it after I took the F Train out to Coney Island one day in the winter and they happened to be taking down Luna Park, the old amusement park there, without any fanfare whatsoever. I just showed up and they were removing this giant rocket ship that was up.
Debbie Millman:
That’s sort of poetic.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I know. I was like, “Better get home and write a song.” This song is a song that a lot of people request. It’s also a song that, whenever I’m in a relationship, people are like, “I really like that song but it’s about So-and-So,” like the person before or whatever. And I’m always like, “No, it isn’t.” So that keeps getting said to me. I don’t know what to make of that. But anyway. Good? Okay.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
(Singing).
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:30:04
Debbie Millman:
Thank you. That was beautiful.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Thanks.
Debbie Millman:
Lucy, you’ve been described as a master of musical melancholy. Would you say that that is accurate?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Well, I mean that’s a nice compliment because I really like sad music a lot, and I don’t think I’ll ever have the feeling towards my songs that I have towards songs that I love. Most of the songs I love are really sad.
Debbie Millman:
What are some of your favorites?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Oh man. Well, there’s a song called “Holy” by Chris Parika that I love so much that’s so sad, I just listened to it today. I can’t listen to it without crying and I really love it. Someone like Patty Griffin has a lot of really sad songs.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve opened for her, what was that like for you?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It was great. I’m a big fan and I don’t know her well and I did a few shows with her last year. It was great. Her audience is great, and I got to watch her show every night and she’s so amazing and wonderful, so that was great.
I also love songs that maybe don’t sound that sad but strike me as sad. Like the Paul Simon “Crazy Love” on the album Graceland. It’s almost upbeat, but it breaks my heart, that song, and I really love to take upbeat- sounding songs and turn them into what someone coined, “Sad snoozers.”
Debbie Millman:
I like “Master of Musical Melancholy” better. I saw that. I wasn’t even going to ask you about that. I don’t think that there’s a better example of you doing that than the song on your album that you released in 2013. The album is titled There’s a Last Time for Everything, which features your really unusual and brilliant cover of the Swedish Pop star Robyn’s “Call Your Girlfriend.” The original is a club beat-heavy pop dance anthem and the entire video of her doing it is of her dancing in a gymnasium.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s such a great video, it’s such a great video.
Debbie Millman:
But you perform it with a few chords on an acoustic guitar and a small choir. I was wondering if you would do that for us as well, but also tell us about why you decided to do that song. What is it about that song?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
When I was making that record, Jordan, the producer and I, took a drive to see Neko Case in Atlanta. We drove from Nashville to Atlanta kind of in the middle of making the record and we played that song and we both loved that song. And about halfway through the song we sort of both looked at each other and thought, “Could we possibly?” And we did. And I’m so glad we did.
I love that song because it’s so unusual, what she’s saying, the way that she’s saying it is not something that I’d heard quite that way before.
Debbie Millman:
I heard it described, or I read it described as a reverse “Jolene,” the song by Dolly Parton, which I think, “Yeah, that’s actually true.”
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, totally. That’s true. Yeah, I just love it. And then when we tried to do it slowed down, which is my mode that I want to take every song into it kind of really worked. In fact, a lot of people think it’s my song and then when I tell them that it’s a dance song, they’re just totally shocked; because I think when you hear it slowed down, it doesn’t seem like it would be a dance song at all.
In fact, the other day somebody came up to me at the CD table and said, “Oh my God, the other day I was in the store and suddenly this dance remix version of your song “Call Your Girlfriend” came on the radio and I was like, ‘Oh my God, she’s gotten so big that they’re remixing her songs as dance song.'” And I was like, ” to worry. I haven’t gotten so big as that. That’s the original.”
Debbie Millman:
Like Tom’s Diner.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
So I love that song and I’ll definitely do it for you if you want.
Debbie Millman:
Yes, please.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
(Singing).
Debbie Millman:
Thank you for that. Lucy, what made you decide to record this album in Nashville?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
The last two I did in Nashville, the first one was in Jordan Brooke Hamlin’s basement. We did that in about a week, and then we decided to make another record together. And at this point Jordan is working out of a studio called Moxe, that is a really beautiful, amazing place. We took a lot longer to make this record. The one before was very quick. This one we made over in chunks over a year and a half or so. Yeah, it was a great experience.
Debbie Millman:
Does location impact your songwriting?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yes. There’s a lot of place in a lot of my songs probably because I spend a lot of time driving around, so there’s a lot of wherever I am seeps into the songs. Most of these songs I wrote in New York, some of them I finished in Nashville. But the beauty of the location of the place where we made the record did play into the recording because for example, when I did my vocal, she has this recording room that faces the woods with these big windows. And so you do a take in the morning and it’s beautiful. You do a take at sunset and it just was very pleasurable to sing.
And I think I sang in a slightly different way. You know how when you personally make a shift it feels big to you? Probably people who heard the record maybe didn’t notice that. But for me there were a lot of things about this record that were like a shift for me.
Debbie Millman:
Your family has famously written about each other. It started with your father, one of his songs written shortly after Rufus was born as titled “Rufus is a Tit Man.” He also wrote about you several times, one song he wrote with your Aunt Terry after you were born as titled “Screaming Issue,” which is about your plaintive, constant crying. He also wrote, “I’d Rather Be Lonely”, about your sister Martha, who countered with her own song to him “Bloody Mother Fucking Asshole” which I’ve actually seen her perform live and it is just a tour de force.
Rufus has written Lucy’s Blue for you. Have you written any songs about any members of your family?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I have, largely I’ve stayed out of any controversy amongst the family in part because my writing can be a bit vague sometimes, so maybe they haven’t noticed. This record has a song that is about my family on it as a whole.
Debbie Millman:
And you’re talking about Little Beast, your new album?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yes. And the song is called “The City,” and I wrote it on a night where the whole family was together in New York. I think it might’ve been my dad’s a record release of his, I was on tour with the Indigo Girls and I had a night off and I had considered flying home to be in this show that my brother and my sister and my other sister who isn’t a performer was going to be in, and my mom, and my aunt, and everybody was going to be in it. And I decided not to go, and it was a hard decision.
And so I had a night off in Petoskey, Michigan on the Indigo Girls Tour, and I sat in the hotel and I wrote “The City,” and that is about the family-
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:45:04]
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I wrote “The City,” and that is about the family business, I would say.
Debbie Millman:
It’s interesting because the song is about the pressure and uncertainty of life as a touring musician. And after I listened to it, I actually went to your website to see your tour dates and it seems as if you’re on the road all the time. It seems as if you did 200+ shows last year.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, I’m away a lot. I’m trying to shift that a little bit just for…
Debbie Millman:
Sanity’s sake?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yes.
Debbie Millman:
So it’s interesting because it was vague enough where I really thought it was about your life and not the life of your family.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s sort of about the circus of the whole situation and everybody’s writing about each other and how people’s lives and relationships and pain seep into the work that they do and stuff.
Debbie Millman:
Does it ever bother you that there’s so much about your childhood and upbringing in a lot of the songs of your family?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
No. Honestly, it is hard for me to imagine what my concept of my close family members would be if you subtracted the songs because I listened to all those people’s records and usually you don’t have that kind of a window into people’s inner life or work in that particular way. And so it’s hard for me to imagine my dad without knowing his work because he’s talked so much about himself in his work, and so it’s kind of valuable information to have.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. I think the only other thing that comes close is Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors, which everybody loved to sort of read into. Was this about Mick? Was this about Lindsay? Was this about Christine? Was it about Stevie and Mick? Or Stevie and Lindsay?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Totally.
Debbie Millman:
But yet that’s your life all the time. That was one album in the 70s.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Right. And this is true about music with everyone, not just the family, but everyone has their own relationship to these songs. You take them into a private space and you experience them. So I recently was in LA singing some backup for a show that Rufus was recording for Audible for a project he’s doing with them. And we did one of my dad’s songs, “Your mother and I,” which he wrote about me or addressed to me when my parents were splitting up. And amongst the siblings, we haven’t probably discussed a lot of everyone’s feelings about the songs, but he chose the songs and he was going to sing that song. And during rehearsal he started to sing it and he just burst into tears. We had to stop.
And it was interesting because we just all are having our own emotional reaction to everyone’s work, and it’s private also, so you might not know. I wouldn’t have thought that would happen. But it’s also a great thing to be able to appreciate each other’s work where I think we’re different enough that we don’t get in each other’s way, but we can still collaborate, which is a nice balance, I think.
Debbie Millman:
Your third album, your most recent album is titled Little Beasts. It was released last October. I think it is maybe your saddest, but definitely your most extraordinary album yet. I think we really see your evolution as a singer and a songwriter and a performer, and the confidence in your lyrics is just beautiful. The song “Quit With Me” is a duet with Matthew Perryman Jones. It’s about two people who love each other very much, but must break up. The tune, “5th of July” looks back at how you felt during and after the 2016 presidential election. The album is really quite extraordinary and I believe it shows your brilliance in a way that is really singular among the Wainwright Roches.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Thank you.
Debbie Millman:
Congratulations on this release.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Thank you very much.
Debbie Millman:
What made you decide to release this album on your own?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I’ve never worked with a record company. I’ve always just called up the Printing Plant in New Jersey and had the records pressed and sold them. That has been my business model. I sort of live in this funny little section of the music business that’s still alive where people buy records. I think they buy them mostly so that you’ll sign them and you can talk while you sign them. I don’t know how many people put them into a CD player, but owning my own music has been the key to staying afloat for me.
Debbie Millman:
I was wondering if you could do one last song for us before you leave?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Sure.
Debbie Millman:
My favorite song on the album is titled “Heroin,” which isn’t exactly about what it sounds like it’s a crafty little song. Can you tell us about it and then play it for us?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Sure. I think this whole record is probably the most personal record that I’ve made, and part of that is that I just decided, lyrically I wasn’t as constrained as I normally am. I let myself say some things that I wouldn’t normally or I didn’t kind of edit things out that I might’ve shied away from before.
Debbie Millman:
Any examples of what you’re talking about?
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, I mean, I think the song “Heroin” is probably one of my most personal songs. It’s completely autobiographical and it’s painful, and I didn’t stop that from existing. Again, it may not show up that way to others, but to me it felt like it was a vulnerable thing for me. The whole record was kind of like that, but definitely that song. I love it when I hear that somebody connected to that song because I mean, I love it when I hear that anybody’s connected to any of the songs. It seems like a miracle and it’s such a great thing, but that song meant a lot to me, and so you hope when you put them out in the world, someone will hear that or it will mean something to someone.
Debbie Millman:
It very well may be my favorite of your songs, so there you have that.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
That’s so great. Let me see. But yeah, this song has some place in it. This has some driving in it, some place in it. Have you ever driven on the Million Dollar Highway in Colorado?
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s so scary.
Debbie Millman:
It’s really scary. I’ve driven cross country and there were moments on that road where actually I was driving with someone else and we were taking turns, so when one of us wasn’t driving, we’d be sleeping. And there was a moment where I was like, “Okay, you got to wake up because I can’t do this by myself.”
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, it’s quite harrowing and I like driving, but it was a little bit too scary, which I guess is what the song’s about (singing). I didn’t say this, but actually I’ve gotten some letters from people who are really concerned that I have a heroin addiction thing, which is actually not, I feel like if you really listen to the song, it doesn’t seem like that, but people are worried.
Debbie Millman:
Well, I mean, it does say the word heroin in it.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
It’s true.
Debbie Millman:
I’m sure Lorde got the same thing even though she was not talking about it at all.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, totally.
Debbie Millman:
And then those that did didn’t.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah, right. I don’t think that a lot of people know that the “Needle and the Damage done” is a song about heroin and Neil Young’s struggle with it.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah, probably not. But there you have it.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Everyone’s all, but I guess that’s the mystery of understanding.
Debbie Millman:
But I was concerned enough to go and look at the lyrics, not because I was worried, but just because I wanted to know the history of the song and really understand what you were talking about or singing about.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Yeah. My friend said to me that sentence, she said, “It’s like saying Happy birthday heroin. Going back into something you should stay away from.” So she said that, and then I was like, “You’re right.”
Debbie Millman:
Cool.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
I have a lot of problems, but that’s not one that happens to be not one of them.
Debbie Millman:
Lucy Wainwright Roche, thank you for making such beautiful work and sharing it with the world.
Lucy Wainwright Roche:
Thank you so much.
Debbie Millman:
You can find out more about Lucy’s music and concerts on her website, LucyWainwrightroche.com. It is now the 15th anniversary of Design Matters, and I’d like to thank you for listening all these years. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
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